OUTSIDE THE CHURCH
THERE IS NO SALVATION
By Colin B. Donovan EWTN
Rebuttal: Warren E. Goddard
The doctrine that "Outside the Church
there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those
who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon
our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth
presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the
First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to
determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside
the Church no salvation."- Colin B. Donovan
Rebuttal: Warren E. Goddard
“The doctrine that 'Outside the Church there
is no salvation' was defined to clarify and affirm the Faith by Pope Innocent
III Fourth Lateran Council and became dogma; therefore, it must be believed as
stated. It is heresy for anyone to expound its meaning:
Hence, too,
that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been
declared by Holy mother Church, and there must never be any abandonment of this
sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding. First Vatican Council.
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Colin B. Donovan
“...is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the
Magisterium of the Church.”
Warren E. Goddard
Being a dogma, it cannot be misinterpreted. We are
bound to believe it as stated and disregard any, even magisterial, teaching to
the contrary. For example, in his May 31,1995, General Audience address, Pope
John II referenced the dogmatic Councils of Florence and Lateran IV before
contradicting them saying, “Salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, in as
much as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice,
without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation
to her" - not to mention Our Lord's tying entry into salvation to water
and faith.
Lionel: Pope John II has misrepresented the Councils of Florence and Lateran IV with Cushingism. He assumes being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire refer to visible and personally known people. He then infers that these known people are examples of salvation without the baptism of water.They are examples of salvation outside the Church for him.He has accepted the New Theology based on the irrational philosophy.
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Colin B. Donovan
“Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our
humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted
that task.”
Warren E. Goddard
For infallible truth all we have are Scripture and dogma.
Progressives can't change Scripture, but they sure undermine dogma while
pretending to uphold it:
Progress of dogmas is, in reality, nothing but corruption of dogmas. I
absolutely reject the heretical doctrine of the evolution of dogma, as passing
from one meaning to another, and different from the sense in which the Church
originally held it. Pope St. Pius X Lamentabili Sane.
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Colin B. Donovan
“This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the
Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the
Tradition—including 'outside the Church no salvation'".
Warren E. Goddard
To the contrary, the defining Magisterium ALONE had the task of affirming the
truth as dogma and no following Magisterium can expound and change its meaning:
If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement
of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which
is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him
be anathema. Vatican Council I.
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Next:
Colin B. Donovan
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two
different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th,
1854 he said:
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is
no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her
perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with
certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are
not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out
the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of
peoples, countries, minds and the rest?
Rebuttal:
Warren E. Goddard
To the contrary, Pope Pius IX's allocution Singulari quadamm does not provide
an exception for “invincible ignorance”:
We have learned with grief that another error, not less melancholy, is
introduced into certain parts of the Catholic world, and has taken possession
of the souls of many Catholics. Carried away with a hope for the eternal
salvation of those who are out of the true Church of Christ, they do not cease
to inquire with solicitude what shall be the fate and the condition after death
of men who are not submissive to the Catholic faith. Seduced by vain reasoning
they make to these questions replies conformably to that perverse doctrine. Far
from Us, Venerable Brothers, to lay claim to put limits to the Divine mercy,
which is infinite! Far from Us to scrutinize the counsels and mysterious
judgments of God, unfathomable depth where human thought cannot penetrate ! But
it belongs to the duty of Our Apostolic office to excite your Episcopal
solicitude and vigilance to make all possible efforts to remove from the minds
of men the opinion, as impious as it is fatal, according to which people can
find in any religion the way of eternal salvation. Employ all the resources of
your minds and of your learning to demonstrate to the people committed to your
care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no respect contrary to the
Divine mercy and justice. Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic
Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and
that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge.
On the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the
true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of
God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits
of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of
countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When
delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will
comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy
and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent
under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold
firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God,
one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted.
Warren E. Goddard
In this allocution on indifferentism, Pope Pius IX says that “It is destructive
error to believe that those who never lived in the true Church” may be saved.
He also says that the invincibly ignorant, among those not saved, are not
guilty of indifferentism in the eyes of God because knowledge of the Faith was
not available to them.
Then we have Pope St. Pius X quoting Pope Benedict XIV on ignorance: “We
declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment
suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of
faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the
elect.” Acerbo Nimis. April 15, 1905
Next:
Colin B. Donovan
Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863
addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our
most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts
graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God
lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace,
attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart,
the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and
goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not
of his own free will fallen into sin.
Rebuttal:
Warren E. Goddard
To the contrary, Pope Pius IX's Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore does not
even imply that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion
may as such attain to eternal life.
Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to
mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe
that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and
alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly
opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling
with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the
natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey
God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the
efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and
clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme
kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of
deliberate sin to suffer eternal torments.
Warren E. Goddard
Pope Pius IX was responding to sophistical “invincible ignorance” inquiries of
his day by distinguishing between those lost due to indifferentism (having and
dismissing knowledge of Christ and His Church) and those lost due to invincible
ignorance (knowledge of Christ and His Church never being available). He then
said the latter are not punished for being ignorant as are the indifferent.
Note that the encyclical's official text is “suffer eternal torments” not
“eternal punishments” given above. In summary this encyclical:
1.Censures Catholics who believe that men can attain salvation from outside the
Church.
2. This “very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged” is
quite contrary to Catholic teaching.
3. An invincibly ignorant man can, by the operating power of divine light and
grace, attain eternal life.
4. No one can be saved outside the Catholic Church, and those who obstinately
and persistently separate themselves from the Church cannot obtain eternal
salvation.
5. Those not guilty of deliberate sin do not suffer eternal torments but, due
to original sin, they are punished with the loss of Heaven.
Next:
Colin B. Donovan
These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church
contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic
Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all
must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned
by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation
to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally
binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.
Rebuttal:
Warren E. Goddard
“These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained
in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Pius' statements are misused to coincide with Vatican II and the
Catechism of the Catholic Church distortions of dogma, causing massive
abandonment of the faith.
Lionel: Cushingism is used to interpret Pope Pius IX and then again with Cushingism Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church was interpreted.This was the ruse of the liberal theologians, supported by the Masons and the magisterium of the popes from Pius XII to Francis.May be some of them were innocently ignorant of the error.However they let it pass.
So 'these statements' are not 'consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church' interpreted with Feeneyism, without the irrational premise, without inferring invisible people are visible excepetions to all needing to be members of the Church for salvation.
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Colin B. Donovan
“...as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all
must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned
by the Magisterium.”
Warren E. Goddard
When Father Leonard Feeney SJ tried to promote acceptance of this obscure
dogma, his archbishop led clandestine efforts for his Jesuit dismissal and
excommunication. It wasn't until his archbishop died that the Vatican removed
the excommunication and restored his priesthood.
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Colin B. Donovan
“It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united
to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep
themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.”
Warren E. Goddard
Absurd! Those who
have steadfastly defended the Faith, holding "Outside Church No
Salvation" dogma as stated, have always remained subject to the Roman
Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII the Bull Unam Sanctam.
Lionel: The Roman See has adopted the Cushingite theology and so were in heresy. They were contradicting the magisterium of the past, which only know of the theology of Feeneyism.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 was irrational and a rupture with the past magisterium.It made an objective error when it assumed invisible people were visible exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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Warren E. Goddard
Mr. Donovan is undermining the Dogma of Faith; let him be anathema.
Lionel: He was supporting heresy by using an irrational premise to create a non traditional conclusion, a non traditional interpretation of magisterial documents, which is politically correct with the Left.
Colin B.Donovan's heretical position is held by Raymond Arroyo and the apologists at EWTN.However John Martignoni is an exception on EWTN.He has said that zero cases of something are not exceptions to the dogma EENS.There are no known cases of being saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. So they are not relevant or exceptions to EENS.
John Martignoni contradicts the apologists on EWTN and Catholic Answers. For Catholic Answers invisible cases are visible exceptions to Tradition.
John Martignoni contradicts the apologists on EWTN and Catholic Answers. For Catholic Answers invisible cases are visible exceptions to Tradition.
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Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
Rebutted by Warren E. Goddard
Comments by Lionel
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