Heresies on Salvation at the Saint Benedict Center (Richmond NH)
...In defending the SBC, Michael Voris has deceitfully limited his explanations of their position to “Outside the Church, No Salvation”. He fails to indicate to his readers that they utterly reject the implicit baptism of desire.
Lionel: They do not reject implicit baptism of desire(BOD).They reject implicit baptism of desire being an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).Fr. Leonard Feeney acknowledged the case of the catechumen, in his book, The Bread of Life.
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And there seem to be two views at Catholicism.org, with some writers permitting very narrow forms of baptism of blood and explicit desire, and others excluding all but water baptism. Both positions are heretical. The former may be termed mitigated Feeneyism and the latter is historical Feeneyism.
Lionel: There is no mitigated or historical Feeneyism since there are no literal cases of the baptism of desire for us human beings. I mean this literally. I am not talking theology here.
Upon there being no literal cases of the BOD, is based my traditional theology on the BOD.
So as a Feeneyite I do not have to reject the baptism of desire, implicit or explicit.Since either way it is not visible or known to us in personal cases.
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By supporting the SBC and specifically defending their interpretation of EENS, Michael Voris and his staff at Church Militant have sided with schismatics and have taught heresy,
Lionel: They have affirmed traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). This would be EENS according to the missionaries and Magisterium of the 16th century, for example. So they are not saying any thing new on EENS.Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) is a rational interpretation of the Council. The conclusion of this rational interpretation is in harmony with EENS ( 16th century).So they do not have to reject EENS or Vatican Council II.They do not have to be heretics or sedevacantists.
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in contradiction to the decision of the CDF on a grave matter of faith. They therefore incur the penalty of automatic excommunication along with the members of the SBC.
Lionel: The CDF interprets the baptism of desire and being invincible ignorance as referring to visible and personally known people in 2019. So the BOD and I.I are exceptions to EENS as it was known to the Magisterium of the 16th century.
But BOD and I.I are not personally known in particular cases. So they cannot be exceptions to Feeneyite EENS.The Holy Office 1949 made this same mistake.
So the CDF is interpreting LG 16( invincible ignorance) with an irrationality.The CDF is interpreting CCC 847-848( invincible ignorance) with the same irrationality.They then assume that Vatican Council II (LG 16 etc) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church(847-848) are exceptions to the centuries-old interpretation of EENS.
This is irrational. It is a rupture with the past popes and Church Councils and it is schismatic. It is also first class heresy since the Creeds are changed. The Athanasius Creed which says outside the Church there is no salvation is completely rejected with the CDF's interpretation of LG 16 and CCC 847-848.This is manifest and public heresy.
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Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith;
Lionel: The CDF persists in assuming invincible ignorance for example, refers to personally known people saved outside the Church.So they re-interpret Vatican Council II irrationally.This is heresy. They persist in it even after being informed.
The CDF assumes that unknown cases of being saved in invincible ignorance( LG 16, CCC-847-848) are known exceptions to the dogma EENS. So they reject the Athanasius Creed. This is first class heresy.
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apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Lionel: The present two popes also interpret magisterial documents like the CDF.
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Canon 1364, n. 1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication”
Lionel: This means the present two popes and the ecclesiastics at the CDF are automatically excommunicated.
They do not recant.
They do not state that there are no personally known cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance.
They do not recant and say that there are no personally known cases of being saved, as referenced in LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc.
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Can. 915 “Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.”
Canon Law 1373: “A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.”
In addition, Church Militant and Michael Voris have many times spoken as if they were above the Popes and the Cardinals and Bishops, as if they had the role to judge and condemn their teachings, decisions on discipline, and even their very souls.
Lionel: In this case they are specific.They affirm EENS according to the Magisterium of the Church over the centuries.They do not reject BOD, BOB and I.I nor Vatican Council II.They accept all the magisterial documents of the Catholic Church.
Meanwhile Ron Conte and the CDF reject traditional EENS and interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational premise and inference, to justify their rejection of traditional EENS. This is irrational, non traditional and heretical.
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This behavior is schismatic as it is entirely incompatible with the submission that all Catholics owe to the Pope, to the Magisterium, and to the Bishops individually and especially as a body.
Lionel: When a pope says unknown cases of BOD, BOB and I.I are known exceptions to EENS this is irrational and a rejection of the past Magisterium of the Chruch. This is schismatic and heretical and so Catholics are not obliged to follow.
When a pope says invisible cases of LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc are visible exceptions to EENS ( 16th century) then they imply that LG 8 etc refer to visible people saved outside the Church.They would have to be visible to be exceptions.
This is irrational. It is non traditional and heretical. Catholics are not obliged to accept this heresy.
The reasoning is also fundamentally false. For example if there is an orange in a box of apples then the orange is an exception there in that box. Since it is different. But the orange is also an exception since it exists there.So for there to be an exception the person or thing must exist in our reality.If there are four tall boys standing at a street corner and a boy who is their friend and is short joins them there. He is an exception since he is physically different. But he is also an exception since he exists there at the corner at that time. If he was not there he would not be an exception.
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Church Militant is a schismatic website that pretends to have the authority to decide all questions of doctrine and discipline definitively.
Lionel: Church Militant claims that they are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church.So they are not publically denying any teaching of the Church supported by the past Magisterium.
If the present ecclesiastics at the Vatican teach heresy and error then this could not be the teaching of the Holy Spirit and so it is not Magisterial.
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Note that Michael Voris complains that the diocese of NH will not respond to his inquiries and questions, while he himself does not respond to inquiries and questions from his critics.
Lionel: The theologian Ron Conte has not responded to my reports and comments over the last few years. He could begin by commenting on this blog post.
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He also refuses to clarify his own position on salvation for atheists, non-Christian believers, non-Catholic Christians, and unbaptized infants.
Lionel: Please see the response below.
More reading: Michael Voris versus Feeneyism
by
Ronald L. Conte Jr.
Roman Catholic theologian
1
Questions for Michael Voris on EENS:
Questions for Michael Voris on EENS (Outside the Church, No Salvation)
1. Can atheists who have sufficient accurate knowledge about Christianity, are able to be baptized with water, but who decline baptism and belief in God, enter the state of grace by an implicit baptism of desire?
Lionel: If they could or could not 'enter the state of grace by an implicit baptism of desire?' this is speculation. What has this to do with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) ? Either way, they are not literal cases in our reality.They could only be known to God.
So why is this question asked with reference to EENS ? Does Conte assume that these are personally known people ?
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2. Can atheists be saved without converting to belief in God?
Lionel : This would only be known to God in particular cases. How could Michael Voris know ?
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3. Can Jews or Muslims who have sufficient accurate knowledge about Christianity, are able to be baptized with water, but who decline baptism, enter the state of grace by an implicit baptism of desire?
Lionel : This would only be known to God in particular cases. How could Michael Voris know, I repeat ?
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4. Can Jews or Muslims, who have sufficient accurate knowledge about Christianity, be saved without converting to Christianity?
Lionel : This would only be known to God in particular cases. How would Michael Voris know ? There can be no known exception to the dogma EENS for us human beings.
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5. Can non-Catholic Christians, who have sufficient accurate knowledge about Catholicism, but decline to convert, die in the state of grace and be saved?
Lionel: Hypothetically we can only speculate. Finally only God can know. So this question is not relevant to the dogma EENS. Since for there to be an exception to EENS ( 16th century) there would have to be a concrete case, a real person saved outside the Church. There is no such person this year or since the time of Vatican Council II (1965).
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6. Is an act of love sufficient for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of formal baptism with water?
Lionel : Please name the particular person you are referring to. Then ask Michael Voris his opinion.
Obviously, there is not such person.
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7. Is the implicit baptism of desire only available to persons who are unable to be baptized with water because of circumstances that make baptism by water impossible? [As Christine Niles asserts in “The Download – What the Hell?”
Lionel : How could Christine Niles know in a particular case?How can she speculate when this can only be known to God.
She can accept the baptism of desire hypothetically, knowing that hypothetical cases cannot be exceptions to EENS.
Even Fr.Leonard Feeney knew that there were no literal cases of the baptism of desire.
Cushingites like Conte assume that the baptism of desire refer to concrete and personally known people saved outside the Church, even though no such people exists in our reality.They then create a heretical theology and expect all of us Catholics, to follow like sheep.
Cushingites like Conte assume that the baptism of desire refer to concrete and personally known people saved outside the Church, even though no such people exists in our reality.They then create a heretical theology and expect all of us Catholics, to follow like sheep.
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8. Can persons who do not know the Church or who even outwardly reject Her, obtain salvation through divine grace, by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external or formal membership in the Church?
Lionel: This is a reference to a hypothetical case. So one can speculate knowing that it is not a practical exception to Feeneyite EENS.
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9. What happens to the children of non-Christians who die without formal baptism with water?
Lionel: Those who die without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church go to Limbo, a place which is not Heaven and neither Hell.
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10. What happens to children who die in the womb without formal baptism with water?
Lionel: They go to Limbo.
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11. Does God will that all human persons be saved, even though many are not saved?
Lionel: Yes God wills that all human people be saved.Jesus died for all. Salvation in potential is open to all. There is universal salvation in this sense. Salvation is open to all and to receive this salvation all need to enter the Catholic Church as members with faith and baptism(AG 7).There is no contradiction between universal salvation and exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church(Dominus Iesus 20).
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12. Since the time of Christ, is salvation granted only to those who explicitly believe in Christ?
Lionel : Yes according to the dogma EENS supported by Scripture (John 3:5, Mark 16:16). If there are exceptions it would only be known to God.-Lionel Andrades
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