Jeff Mirus and Phil Lawler at Catholic Culture are using the false premise to interpret Vatican Council II and the Creeds

 

Lumen Gentium 16 does not refer to a known or specific instance. Indeed, there can be no ”known” instance of salvation outside of the Blessed Mother and those persons whom the Church has declared Saints – all of whom were, as far as I know, professed Christians in life. I suppose St. Dismas (the Good Thief) stands apart as an exception, but there is much that is exceptional about being crucified next to Our Lord! 

This is part of the correspondence with Catholic Culture.

I wrote:-

It's not clear. Are you saying that there are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 who are saved outside the Church. We cannot see or meet them in the flesh. If they existed they would only be known to God.

I am speaking in the sense of physics, moving bodies, stationary bodies, momentum, Newton's laws of gravitation etc.

This was my last communication with Catholic Culture.There was no reply.

I know that Jeff Mirus and Phil Lawler interpret Vatican Council II with a false premise.

So if they admit that there are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 who are saved outside the Church. We cannot see or meet them in the flesh. If they existed they would only be known to God, they would have to admit that they have used a false premise to interpret the Council.

I wrote I am speaking in the sense of physics, moving bodies, stationary bodies, momentum, Newton's laws of gravitation etc. There is no reply from them. Since it would also indicate that they are interpreting the Nicene and Apostles Creed with a false premise.-Lionel Andrades

THERE CAN BE TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF THE APOSTLES CREED AND THE NICENE CREED. 

How does Catholic Culture interpret the Apostles Creed at Holy Mass ?

There are two options, one rational and the other irrational, one traditional and the other non traditional, one heretical and the other non heretical, one schismatic and the other not a rupture with the past Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Most Catholics choose the irrational version which is not prohibited by the popes, cardinals and bishops.

1. Do you say in church, at Holy Mass when the Creed is prayed, " I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Catholic Church there is salvation, known salvation, there are visible non Catholics saved without faith and the baptism of water and so there is no communion with the saints on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Athanasius Creed etc  ? 

Or,

2. Do you say in church at Mass , "I beleive in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and then mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Church there is no known salvation, there are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 saved without Catholic faith and the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so there is  communion with the saints- Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Catherine of Siena, Maximillian Kolbe etc - on extra ecclesiam nulla salus( with no exceptions, like in the 16th century) the Athanasius Creed which says all need to be Catholic for salvation, the Catechism of Pope Pius X ( 24Q, 27Q), the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX ( ecumenism of return), Quas Primas o Pope Pius XI on the Proclamation of the Social Reign of Christ the King in all political legislation etc ?

What are your answers to these three questions?

 1. Do you affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with no exceptions ? Can I quote you ?

2.There are  no physically visible cases of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. We cannot see them physically. Do you agree with me, there are no visible cases in 2021? Can I quote you?

3.If the popes, cardinals and bishops are interpreting Magisterial documents with a false premise to create an objective error it still is a violation of Aristotle's Principle of Non Contradiction. There is no exemption for rank or status. Do you agree ?

For further clarification : three more questions

1) Do we personally know of any dead person now in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc,can we physically see them, in 2021 ? Yes or No.

2) Since we do not know any of these cases, in real life, they are not visible to us, there are no known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, or Ad Gentes 7 which states 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation ?

3) So are LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc practical exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

There are two interpretations of the Nicene Creed, which one is yours.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins - Nicene Creed

1. There is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, it is the baptism of water. It is physically visible and repeatable.

Or.

2.There are more than three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins, they are known baptisms, personally visible. They are the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance. They exclude the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so are practical exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) as explained in the Letter of the Holy Office(CDF) 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston. It was referenced also in Vatican Council II(Lumen Gentium 16).-Lionel Andrades