Difference in the concept of The Great Commission between Rorate Caeili and myself

 Easter Friday: The Great Commission

Teaching, Faith, Commandment: Truth is at the center of the Mission of the Church to all the Peoples of the world. May it begin once again once this Babylonian Exile started with Vatican II is at last put to an end. -Rorate Caeili, webblog

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/04/easter-friday-great-commission.html#more

Truth ? Here is the difference between New Catholic at the webblogRorate Caeili and myself.

Lionel: 

There are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 who are saved outside the Church. We cannot see or meet them in the flesh. If they existed they would only be known to God. I am speaking in the sense of physics, moving bodies, stationary bodies, momentum, Newton's laws of gravitation etc.

At Newton's level of matter there are no stationary bodies, human beings saved outside the Catholic Church with the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance or the baptism of blood. According to the laws of physics, space, mass, light etc,  we cannot see a non Catholic saved outside the Catholic Church.

New Catholic, Rorate Caeili

There are physically visible non Catholics in 2021 who are saved outside the Church. We can see or meet them in the flesh. They are known not only to God but also human beings. He is referring to physics, moving bodies, stationary bodies, momentum, Newton's laws of gravitation etc.so for New Catholic, and the Lefebvrists, the baptism of desire and inincible ignorance are practical exceptions to 16th century extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).

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THERE CAN BE TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF THE APOSTLES CREED AND THE NICENE CREED.His and mine. 

How do you interpret the Apostles Creed at Holy Mass ?

There are two options, one rational and the other irrational, one traditional and the other non traditional, one heretical and the other non heretical, one schismatic and the other not a rupture with the past Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Most Catholics choose the irrational version which is not prohibited by the popes, cardinals and bishops.

" I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" - Apostles Creed

New Catholic, Rorate Caeili 

1. Do you say in church, at Holy Mass when the Creed is prayed, " I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Catholic Church there is salvation, known salvation, there are visible non Catholics saved without faith and the baptism of water and so there is no communion with the saints on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Athanasius Creed etc  ? 

Or,

Lionel:

2. Do you say in church at Mass , "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and then mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Church there is no known salvation, there are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 saved without Catholic faith and the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so there is  communion with the saints - Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Catherine of Siena, Maximillian Kolbe etc - on extra ecclesiam nulla salus( with no exceptions, like in the 16th century) the Athanasius Creed which says all need to be Catholic for salvation, the Catechism of Pope Pius X ( 24Q, 27Q), the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX ( ecumenism of return), Quas Primas o Pope Pius XI on the Proclamation of the Social Reign of Christ the King in all political legislation etc ?

THERE ARE TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF THE NICENE CREED. WHICH ONE IS YOURS ?

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins - Nicene Creed

Lionel : 

1. There is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, it is the baptism of water. It is physically visible and repeatable.

Or.

New Catholic, Rorate Caeili

2.There are more than three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins, they are known baptisms, personally visible. They are the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance. They exclude the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so are practical exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) as explained in the Letter of the Holy Office(CDF) 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston. It was referenced also in Vatican Council II(Lumen Gentium 16).

There are can be two interpretations of the Great Commission.

Lionel:

We cannot affirm mentally that the catechumen who desires the baptism of water, died before receiving it, went to Heaven is a known case. We cannot act as if this imaginary personal is a known case in the past or present.

We cannot say the popes and saints mentioned the baptism of desire and also not say that none of them said that these cases were explicit and objective. So there are exceptions to the Great Commission in their words and actions. There are exceptions also to all needing the baptism of water for salvation according to the Bible ( John 2:5).So in the Great Commission it is said that all need to enter the Church and it is also said that there are exceptions.This is false. There are no known exceptions to the Great Commission.

New Catholic, Rorate Caeili

There are known exceptions to the Great Commission.Theologically there are people who do not need Christ.Since there is salvation outside the Church.Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus is rejected. There is salvation outside the Church since the baptism of desire (BOD)  and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I) refer to physically known cases instead of invisible persons in our reality.

Yes this is double speak.This is also the double speak of the SSPX and the sedevacantists. 

Their new theology says every one needs to enter the Church but some do not.

New Catholic, Rorate Caeili

 We also can see the double speak in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 1257). It says all need the baptism of water for salvation( defacto) but some do not.Why? Since God is not limited to the Sacraments.This interpretation contradicts Tradition and other Catechisms.The false premise is used.

Lionel:

But 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' is a reference to a hypothetical state. It is not defacto known in personal cases. However the confusion between what is visible and invisible, objective and hypothetical, explicit and implicit, is useful for double speak. Even the traditionalists and sedevacantists  support this confusion.For me there is no contradiction in CCC 1257. It does not contradict the dogma EENS since God is not limited to the Sacraments refers to a hypothetical and physically invisible case.

 New Catholic, Rorate Caeili

For the Lefebvrists Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance) refers to a practical exception to 16th century EENS.They are not Feeneyites. So it is implied that this is a reference to a known person, a visible case in Newton's time and space.It is an exception to EENS and the rest of Tradition.This is how Don Pietro Leone on Rorate Caeili also reasons and he is writing a book on Vatican Council II in which he will repeat this error.

Lionel:

For me LG 16 is always a hypothetical case and so does not contradict Tradition(EENS, Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX etc).

So we have two interpretations of the Great Commission, the Creeds, the Catechisms and Vatican Council II.

What is truth?

-Lionel Andrades