Closes uncomfortable thread on website.
Apologist Karl Keating’s website Catholic Answers ' Administrator, who was participating in a discussion, was asked if he could answer six questions relevant to the subject. Members, including the administrator, had already posted on the Forum, comments and questions.
The questions and answers developed on the thread ' Vatican Council II says outside the Church no Salvation’.
The URL of the thread now disabled was http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=376928. ).
The thread quoted a passage from the website of Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN). ) It is Fr. Most’s controversial article The Church and Salvation. (On EWTN to access the article click first on Faith then Teachings, The Catholic Church and then The Church and Salvation )
The thread also included an analysis of the CDF (Holy Office) Letter to the Archbishop of Boston 1949 relative to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
The questions were:-
(With Reference to the EWTN article)
1) Where is the proof (Roman Catholic Magisterial document) which says that Brother Francis Maluf MICM and Fr. Leonard Feeney say/said de jure that there are no exceptions (i.e. invincible ignorance, baptism of desire etc,) to salvation?
2) Where is the proof that the Catholic Church teaches that de facto there are exceptions to salvation as suggested by the EWTN website in Fr. William Most’s article?
EWTN suggests Bro. Francis Maluf MICM, Superior, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Richmond, New Hampshire, USA was in heresy. Bro. Francis expired this Sept.5, 2009.
It would also mean two other communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney, granted canonical status by the Catholic Church, and are also in heresy. EWTN has posted the Letter of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office to Archbishop Richard J. Cushing (August 8, 1949) on the Internet. Yet no where does the Letter say that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. This is suggested by Fr. William Most on the EWTN website.
Bro. Francis Maluf 96 was one of the original professors who were dismissed by the Jesuit Rector of Boston College. He was supported by Fr. Leonard Feeney and the issue became public.
The Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr. Leonard Feeney over Catholic doctrine. It did not condemn him as EWTN asserts.
The Letter also referred to the dogma. The infallible teaching.
The dogma- according to Church Councils and popes says that all people need de facto to enter the Catholic Church through Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water. All people- means, de facto no exceptions. This has always been the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is an ecumenical point we have in common with the Orthodox Churches.
No more, after 60 years and with clear websites of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the St. Benedict Center, USA, can we say that de jure (de iure) Fr. Leonard Feeney and Bro. Francis Maluf believed there could be no exceptions(the exceptions include invincible ignorance, baptism of desire etc.)
Otherwise it is slander and calumny. The website of the Richmond, NH Catholic community is clear on doctrine.
The websites of the St. Benedict’s Abbey (Men), Still River and St. Benedict Center (Women) express their Catholic beliefs. They are communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney in the diocese of Worcester USA. They uphold the original teachings of their founder- and the infallible, ex cathedra dogma of the Council of Florence.
De jure there are exceptions. De facto there are none.
EWTN is saying that Br. Francis Maluf at St. Benedict Center in 1949 (and now) did not accept that de jure there were exceptions and is in heresy?!
The following four general questions related to Catholic Mission doctrine, were also asked of Catholic Answers.
1) Does the Catholic Church teach that non-Catholic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam etc) are not paths to salvation (to go to Heaven and to avoid Hell)? Yes or No.
2) Does the Catholic Church teach that Catholic Faith and Baptism are needed for all people in general, barring the exceptions, for salvation? Yes or No.
3) When I meet a Jew in Boston I can tell him that the Catholic Church teaches that he needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell? Yes or No.
4) The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston 1949 said de facto Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water are needed for all people with no exceptions( ‘dogma’, ‘infallible' teaching). However de jure non Catholics can be saved through the baptism of desire and implicit faith? Yes or No
Apologist Karl Keating has answered the first two questions (1&2), in another context, with the answer YES.
The third question refers to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. De facto all people; everyone, needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water for salvation and there are no exceptions.It is heresy and a mortal sin to deny this ex cathedra teaching.
Question four (4) refers to the Letter 1949 in which the CDF supported Fr. Leonard Feeney on the Catholic dogma. The Letter was critical of him and the St. Benedict Center for not being obedient to the Archbishop, who it was believed at that time, was faithful to the dogma. The first half of the Letter focuses on the dogma. The second half on discipline.
According to the Michael Francis, Moderator, Catholic Answers, Moderator, Apologetics & Sacred Scripture & Caritas in Veritate
Sept.22, 2009,
I have removed the following thread Vatican council ii says outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation
which you made to the Apologetics Forum. It was deleted because it failed to satisfy the criteria described in: Choosing and Helpful Hints for Posting
To prevent future thread deletions, please follow the advice offered above. In short, your posts should:
· present a topic suitable for dialogue, discussion, or debate, or
· serve an educational purpose, or
· ask a question
Should you desire to start your own personal webpage (e.g., blog) where you may share your thoughts and insights with others, you may obtain one free of charge at www.blogspot.com, as well as elsewhere on the web.
At Catholic Answers Forums, our mission is of a different nature - it is to foster discussion and education regarding the Catholic Faith. Please understand that any future threads/posts which do not follow the above guidelines will be likewise deleted.It may be mentioned the subject was a Catholic issue, it was being discussed, it was educational, it was new for the Forum Administrators, it asked questions and it was according to the teachings of the Catholic Magisterium, citing references. It was publicly appreciated on the Forum by members of Catholic Answers.
The problem arose when I publicly asked the Catholic Answers Administrator on the Forum if he could answer the six questions relevant to the discussion.
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1 comment:
Hey the same thing happened to me and a friend. Karel Keating jined the discussion from out of the blue. My friend said that Karel was avoiding the subject and has added nothing to the discussion. (It was some weird minor point he made.) But they banned my friend short after that and then they banned me too, I guess since we use the same computer and IP address. They never expalined why they banned us. The problem I think was that I never lost a debate on EENS and people were starting to change their minds.
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