Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was sincere but he interpreted Vatican Council II irrationally and not rationally.

 from Rorate Caeili

The extract  from Archbishop Lefebvre’s discourse held in Trent in June 1979  and entitled:

“The Second Vatican Council:  What would the Fathers of the Council of Trent  say about it?”

“Seeing the present state of the Church is a cause of great grief to us – and  I am sure it is the same for all of you.   How can it be that we have received official documents from Rome that are not in favor of the Catholic Religion?    That do not go along with the Tradition and the Catholic Faith? The answer is easy – the Church has been taken over; yes, it has been taken over; taken over by Modernists who defend [their] errors condemned by Pius X, who  said: “The enemy is now inside the Church -  it is no longer on the outside – it is inside the Church.”

Lionel: Please note that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was sincere but he interpreted Vatican Council II irrationally and not rationally.

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This enemy is found in the seminaries; in these seminaries the enemy of the Church will become a priest, a bishop, a cardinal with ideas that are not Catholic but modernist, laden with naturalism, rationalism, evolutionism and relativism in doctrine and morality.  This is Modernism. 

Lionel: He is not aware that his irrational interpretation of the Council is modernism.

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Men with these ideas became bishops and cardinals.  Then the Second Vatican Council was ushered in and the Modernists wanted to have this Council to spread their ideas. And they held this Council with weak Popes.  Pope John XXIII was not a very strong man and even if he was a traditionalist at heart, he didn’t want to give the impression of not being up-to-date with modern ideas.

Under the influence of these cardinals he opened the Council, and, in my opinion, the poor Pope died of grief when he saw where the Council was heading.  That was my impression anyway. 

Lionel : Pope John XXIII accepted the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office  which interpreted the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance, irrationally. Pope Pius XII did not correct the mistake and neither did Pope Paul VI.

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I knew Pope John well when he was Monsignor Roncalli in Paris, where,  as Apostolic Delegate in Africa, I went to see him many times. We spoke a lot. He  had the heart of a traditionalist – and when he saw how this Council was ruining the Church –  it is said he uttered before he died: “Stop the Council. Stop the Council!” 

Lionel : They still did not know that the Council could be interpreted with LG 8,14,15,16,UR 3,NA 2, GS 22 etc being only hypothetical. It would then not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The Council would be in harmony with Tradition.

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Regrettably,  the Modernists who took over the Church are still there, and have driven out all the traditionalists and now every great city in the world has a modernist bishop as cardinal: Milan, Madrid, Amsterdam, Paris and Chicago. 

Lionel: Even the traditionalist bishops were interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally. So they were liberals in theology and doctrine.

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When Monsignor Bernardin, the newly appointed Cardinal of Chicago, was Bishop of Cincinnati, he was involved in a pacifist campaign and led a peace march.  [Subsequently  he was made Archbishop of  Chicago].

When I visited Chicago [some time before the actual appointment], I read in the newspapers that the press was not in favour of this Bishop becoming Archbishop of Chicago - the second most important city in America.  This was the opinion of both the leftist and the conservative-right newspapers – in short – all the newspapers. And what happened? Monsignor Bernardin was duly nominated Archbishop of Chicago! How can this be accounted for?  There was someone behind it all  - one of the modernist Cardinals  in Rome: Casaroli, Baggio, Pironio, Poletti –  they are all modernists.

 

Lionel: Vatican Council II interpreted irrationally produces modernism.

-Lionel Andrades

Message incomplete

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https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2023/08/trent-italy-june-1979-address-by-abp.html

Deacon Diogo from Portugal at Medugorje

All the Dominican Confessors at the basilica of St.Mary Majors, Rome and also the Franciscans of the Immaculate priests who offer Mass in Italian, there, support public mortal sins of faith, when they interpret LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc , irrationally. There are new versions of the Creeds

 

All the Dominican Confessors at the basilica of St.Mary Majors, Rome and also the Franciscans of the Immaculate priests who offer Mass in Italian, there, support public mortal sins of faith, when they interpret LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc , irrationally.They produce new versions of the Nicene Creed , a new understanding of the Apostles Creed  and a rejection of the Athanasius Creed. There are also now two versions of the Catechisms, when the Catechisms mention the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance. For them, BOD and I.I in  the Catechisms are Cushingite and for me they are Feeneyite.

The Franciscans of the Immaculate seminary near Termini, Rome, is also promoting the Cushingite error.  -Lionel Andrades

The Judges at the Vatican’s Supreme Tribunal (Signatura) are not competent to judge since they are still interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally and this is unethical.

 

The Judges at the Vatican’s Supreme Tribunal (Signatura) are not competent to judge since they are still interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally and this is unethical. For them LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc are a rupture with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) and the rest of Tradition. They do not affirm Feeneyite EENS i.e EENS according to the Fourth Lateran Council (1215).

This is unethical. Cardinal Gianfranco Ghirlanda sj and the Canonist Associations are not correcting the mistake of the judges.

How can these judges confuse what is invisible as being visible? It is as if their objective reality is not the same as the rest of us humans.

Even the judges at the secular Constitutional Court, Rome, who have a Catholic background, are interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally. The Jurisprudence Department of La Sapienza University, Rome is also teaching the same error on Vatican Council II, to students.

Interestingly, La Sapienza University was founded by a pope who supported the dogma EENS. We now know that EENS is not contradicted by Vatican Council II, interpreted rationally. So students can affirm EENS and Vatican Council II. It is not either-or any more.

CONCORDAT OF 1929

How do the judges of the Constitutional Court of Justice, Rome interpret the Concordat, is it with Vatican Council II, rational or irrational?

Vatican Council II rational is in harmony with the theology of the 1929 Concordat. The Church and the Italian State must go back to Tradition.

The political parties, of Giorgia Melloni and Matteo Salvini must interpret Vatican Council II rationally. Then there is no rupture with the understanding of Church, as it was known over the centuries in Italy.The Catholic Church will not be able to support LGBT-sex in the name of Vatican Council II, interpreted irrationally.-Lionel Andrades

All the reports/articles on Vatican Council II on the website of the Vatican are now obsolete. They are written with Cushingism and not Feeneyism.It is the same for the SSPX websites and those of the sedevacantists (CMRI, MHT, and MHFM) websites.

 

All the reports/articles on Vatican Council II on the website of the Vatican are now obsolete. They are written with Cushingism and not Feeneyism.It is the same for the SSPX websites and those of the sedevacantists (CMRI, MHT, and MHFM) websites.

At the University of St. Anselm Rome, Department of Liturgy, they are interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally and not rationally. All this has been approved by Cardinal Arthur Roche who calls it the ‘new magisterium’ of the Church. This same modernism is there at Mass organized by the Latin Mass Societies of England and Wales and Una Voce. The liberals and traditionalist have been choosing Cushingism as a theology. This is the theology of the National Catholic Reporter and Fr. John Zuhlsdorf.

If LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc are seen as only hypothetical cases then the interpretation is rational. If they are seen as objective cases in 2023, known non Catholics saved outside the Church, without faith and the baptism of water, then this interpretation is irrational.

Either way, rational or irrational, it has a bearing on how we interpret the Creeds, Catechisms and Councils. Ecclesiology is traditional or non traditional.

The websites of the Vatican and the SSPX interpret LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc, as exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). So they imply that LG 8 etc refer to physically visible cases in 1965-2023. Invisible people cannot be exceptions for the dogma EENS and the Athanasius Creed.

For example, if there is an apple in a box of oranges then the apple is an exception because it is different, but also because it is there in that box. If it was not there in that box it would not be an exception.

If anyone is saved according to LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 etc, it can only be known to God. We cannot say that there is, for example, a St.Emerentiana in Heaven saved without the baptism of water. We cannot know on earth. No one has seen her in Heaven without the baptism of water.

We cannot say that the Good Thief (Dismas) is in Heaven without the baptism of water. We cannot know if he was baptized. Even if he was in Heaven without the baptism of water, we do not know of any Dismas in 1965-2023 who could be an exception for the dogma EENS.

We know that for salvation, all need faith and the baptism of water, this is the norm, and we cannot project any particular person as being an exception.    - Lionel Andrades