Tuesday, October 16, 2012

FIFTY CATHOLIC LEADERS FROM ITALY WHO PETITIONED THE POPE DID NOT KNOW THAT VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS ?

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There was a Petition to Pope Benedict XVI for a more in-depth examination of the Second Vatican Council (14-10-2011 SSPX news)

The signatures of almost 50 Catholic leaders follow, according to the SSPX, among them:

Romano Amerio.Roberto-de-Mattei_11Msgr. Gherardini.Prof. Paolo Pasqualucci, professor of philosophy; Msgr. Brunero Gherardini, dean of the Italian theologians, professor of Ecclesiology; Msgr. Antonio Livi, professor emeritus of epistemology at the Lateran University; Prof. Roberto de Mattei, Università Europea di Roma; Prof. Luigi Coda Nunziante, personally and in his capacity as president of the association Famiglia Domani; Dr. Paolo Deotto, chairman of Riscossa Cristiana (www.riscossa cristiana.it); Prof. Piero Vassallo, professor of philosophy, co-chairman of Riscossa Cristiana; Dr. Virginia Coda Nunziante; Dr. Pucci Cipriani; Fr. Marcello Stanzione and the entire Militia of St. Michael the Archangel; Prof. Dante Pastorelli, Governor of the Venerable Confraternity of St. Jerome and St. Francis of Assisi in San Filippo Benizi, Florence, and president of Una Voce (Florence); Calogero Cammarata, president of Inter Multiplices Una Vox (Turin); Dr. Cristina Siccardi – Castiglione Torinese (TO); Dr. Carlo Manetti – Castiglione Torinese (TO); Alessandro Gnocchi; Mario Palmaro; Mario Crisconio, Knight of the Order of Malta, Governor of the Pio Monte della Misericordia (Naples), president of Una Voce (Naples); Enrico Villari, Ph.D., engineer (Naples); Marcello Paratore, professor of philosophy (Naples); Giuseppe De Vargas Machuca, First Governor of the Reale Arciconfraternità e Monte del SS. Sacramento dei Nobili Spagnoli (Naples); Giovanni Turco, university professor, president de la International Thomas Aquinas Society, Naples division; Giovanni Tortelli, writer, research specialist in canon law and Church history (Florence).
http://www.dici.org/en/documents/petition-to-pope-benedict-xvi-for-a-more-in-depth-examination-of-the-second-ecumenical-vatican-council/

CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER AND ARCHBISHOP MARCEL LEFEBVRE COULD HAVE PREVENTED THE SSPX PROBLEM BY IDENTIFYING THE WRONG PREMISE

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/10/cardinal-joseph-ratzinger-and.html#links

POPE JOHN XXIII, POPE PAUL VI AND POPE JOHN PAUL II NEVER IDENTIFIED THE VISIBLE DEAD SAVED MISUNDERSTANDING WHICH CAME FROM THE FR.LEONARD FEENEY ERA
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/10/pope-john-xxiii-pope-paul-vi-and-pope.html#links

ARCHBISHOP GERHARD MULLER ASSUMES THAT THE DEAD WHO ARE SAVED ARE VISIBLE ON EARTH AND SO EVERY ONE DOES NOT NEED TO ENTER THE CHURCH:NCR interview


To Father Adolfo Nicolas, SJ.

COULD THERE BE A THIRD FALSE EXCOMMUNICATION ?

Explicit baptism of desire influences theology among those who are for and against the baptism of desire

Here are some passages from the article which refers to the theology of the baptism of desire. I have added comments.

If it is assumed that the baptism of desire is explicit and known to us in the present times then it would follow that the baptism of desire is an exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Then this would influence theology .
Lionel

Baptism of Desire: Its Origin and Abandonment in the Thought of Saint Augustine

by Brian Kelly April 28, 2011

http://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html



In their efforts to drain the thrice-defined dogma of its literal sense, these overly optimistic theologians insisted that the dogma needed to be “interpreted” according to the sense of the living ordinary magisterium of our time. Even Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, postulated that what extra ecclesiam nulla salus really meant was that there is no salvation without the Church:

“The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church. The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. . . .” (Open Letter to Confused Catholics)...

Lionel: Implicit baptism of desire is not an explicit exception to the dogma. We do not know any case of the baptism of desire.It is never explicit baptism of desire for us.So if a non Catholic was saved in his religion we would not know. It is irrelevant to the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation.

If the writer assumes that implicit baptism of desire is explicit for us then it is not rational.

These re-formulations of the dogma have been even further eviscerated by more liberal elements to a redaction devoid of any challenge: “No one can be saved outside the Catholic Church who knows that the Catholic Church is the true Church but refuses to enter it.”

Lionel: Yes the non Catholics who know and the one who is in invincible ignorance will be judged by God. We cannot say that we know who will be saved in invincible ignorance. We cannot judge. These cases are not explicit for us.

The dogma says all non Catholics need to convert into the Church, while we do not know any exceptions to the dogmatic teaching.

Many priests and theologians draw this inference, rightly or wrongly, from a passage in Vatican II’s Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation” (#16).

Lionel: Those who are saved 'who though no fault of their own...' are not explicit for us. We do not know these cases.So they do not contradict the dogma.

Father Francois Laisney, in a letter written to me in 1999 on this issue, labored much to convince me that Saint Cyprian favored baptism of desire..

Lionel: Assuming that he did favor the baptism of desire the saint does not say that these cases are explicit or that they contradict the dogma.

In a letter to Master Hugh, who had asked for his opinion about the question of baptism of desire, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (+1153) also cited the two fathers, Ambrose and Augustine, as his authorities in favoring it. But he clearly spoke of it as a matter of opinion:

“We adduce only the opinions and words of the fathers and not our own; for we are not wiser than our fathers. . . . Believe me, it will be difficult to separate me from these two pillars, by which I refer to Augustine and Ambrose. I confess that with them I am either right or wrong in believing that people can be saved by faith alone and the desire to receive the sacrament, even if untimely death or some insuperable force keep them from fulfilling their pious desire.”...

Lionel: They can be saved by faith alone and the desire to receive the sacrament. Of course we cannot know who these cases are. The saint is not saying that we can know them personally. This was the error of Cardinal Richard Cushing in the 1940's.
-Lionel Andrades

ST.AUGUSTINE AND THE SAINTS DO NOT CLAIM THAT THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE CASES ARE KNOWN TO US, ARE VISIBLE TO US

Cardinal Richard Cushing contributed to the illusion of the baptism of desire being an exception to the ordinary means of salvation chosen by God

FATHER LEONARD FEENEY'S COMMUNITY WEBSITE

ST.AUGUSTINE AND THE SAINTS DO NOT CLAIM THAT THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE CASES ARE KNOWN TO US, ARE VISIBLE TO US

Anonymous
Baptism of Desire: Its Origin and Abandonment in the Thought of Saint Augustine
by Brian Kelly April 28, 2011
http://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Lionel:
Thank you for the link. I have read this report before.
I appreciate the theology and the research.

Of course we take it for granted that the baptism of desire in individual cases is known only to God.

St.Augustine and the other saints quoted do not claim that these cases are known to us.Those who are saved are not visible to us.

Since these cases are unknown to us they do not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


The baptism of desire is irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma on salvation.-Lionel Andrades


Cardinal Richard Cushing contributed to the illusion of the baptism of desire being an exception to the ordinary means of salvation chosen by God
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/10/cardinal-richard-cushing-contributed-to.html#links