Wednesday, December 3, 2014

Possibilities cannot be defacto exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation in the present times.

These are follow up comments on Steve Speray's blog:
http://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2014/11/27/the-sedevacantist-saint-vincent-ferrer/#comment-4896

From Pope Pius XII to Pope Francis they all have been using an irrational premise in the interpretation of magisterial texts.
For instance the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments and also the Church knows of no means to eternal beatifude other than the baptism of water. This is a contradiction.It contradicts the Principle of Non Contradiction.

SPERAY REPLIES: You left out “ASSURES” which is the key word, but it doesn’t contradict anything. The fact that you say such foolishness means you don’t know the Catholic Faith. You’ve created a religion in your head thinking it’s Catholic. IT’S NOT. It’s Lionelism.

Lionel:
Here it says all need the baptism of water  for salvation in the present times.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation...
Then it says that for some, in the present times, baptism is not necessary for salvation i.e those who are in ignorance. (Note :the baptism of water can only be given in the present times. So we are not referring to a hypothetical case here)
 for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. 
Then once again it says that the baptism of water is defacto necessary. This would mean every one in 2014 needs the baptism of water.
The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude
Then it refers to some who do not need the baptism of water defacto. They are those who do not have the means of being baptised. In other words we defacto know where the necessity of means and precept can be applied. This is not just the prerogative of Jesus to judge. Seemingly even we can judge.
that  all who can be baptized 
Then comes the cream of the double speak and assuming hypothethical cases are defacto visible to us in the present times. 
 God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism in the present times but every one does not need  the Sacrament of baptism in the present times.
Apparently Cardinal Ratzinger personally knew of a defacto exception, a person who would be going to Heaven without the baptism of water.This line is contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction.
Here is the complete text of CCC 1257.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Lionel:
How can you say that de facto God is not limited to the Sacraments and also say God is limited to the Sacraments for salvation?
SPERAY: NO ONE SAID GOD WAS LIMITED TO THE SACRAMENTS FOR SALVATION. You’ve assumed it.
Lionel:
Please see the text (comment) above.I have quoted the text of CCC 1257 for you.
Lionel:
This error was not corrected by Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI. Pope Francis has also accepted it as have all the cardinals and bishops.
SPERAY REPLIES: They aren’t Catholic so your point is moot. However, they don’t have to correct something that’s only erroneous in your head.
Lionel:
They are Catholic and you are still unaware of the error since you use the same irrational premise. You too like the other sedevacantists are assume there are visible -in- Heaven exceptions to Tradition. So you are unable to correct the popes on this point, while you criticize them otherwise.
Lionel:
Pope Pius XII and all the popes who have followed him have accepted that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are visible to us in the present times.
SPERAY REPLIES: Another problem in your head. NO ONE SAID BOD is visible. Salvation is not visible in any respect unless it was made known in a special way by God. Which saint in heaven is visible to us?????? Answer that question.
Lionel:
If the baptism of desire is not visible for you then how can it be an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? If being saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) is not defacto visible for you in 2014 then how can these cases be an exception or relevant to all needing the baptism of water for salvation in the present times ? Since they are exceptions for you, people in Heaven are visible to you. They are not exceptions for me.So it does not apply to me.
Steve:
 Which saint in heaven is visible to us?????? Answer that question.
Lionel:
For me there is nothing in Vatican Council II or the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which contradicts the dogma. So they do not have to be visible to me. Can you say the same ? Vatican Council II does not contradict Tradition? The Baptism of desire mentioned in the Letter of the Holy Office is not an exception to the traditional interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney?
Lionel:
They would have to be visible and known to us to be explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney.

SPERAY REPLIES: Feeney’s error was that he believed in Baptism of Desire, but such a justified person wouldn’t go to heaven or hell.

Lionel:
So what if Fr.Leonard  Feeney  believed in a baptism of desire ? What has the baptism of desire to do with the dogma ? If it results in salvation or justification it would be known only to God, in a particular case. We do not know of any such particular case to judge if it results in justification or does not.We do not know the name of any such person.
Steve:
 He said he doesn’t know where such a person would go.
Lionel:
And you know of some such case ? And where this person will go ?
Steve:
 In other words, Feeney believe that person could be justified WITHOUT baptism, but he still wouldn’t go to heaven. YOU DON’T THE TRUTH ABOUT FEENEY! I’ve read everything he taught.
Lionel:
You know someone in your diocese  who will go to Heaven without the baptism of water but with the baptism of desire?
Steve:
We have it here once. Defacto every one needs to enter the Church ( extra ecclesiam nulla salus) but some do not have to enter the Church for salvation?
SPERAY REPLIES: WRONG! Everyone needs to enter the Church but not formally. 
Lionel:
Every one needs to be a member of the Catholic  Church, according to the dogma.
Every one needs 'faith and baptism' according to Vatican Council II (AG 7).
You can only be a member of the Church formally. You can choose to be a member of the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism'
You cannot choose to become a member of the Church with the baptism of desire or blood. Since these are graces given and known only to God.
Do you know of any exceptions? This year or the last few years ?
Steve:
You’ve assumed formally, but no pope or council ever taught it. Pope St. Pius X taught that men can be saved without baptism. So did Pope ST. Pius V, and every pope since Trent.

Lionel:

Neither does Mystici Corporis of Pope Pius XII  or the Council of Trent say that we know of any one who can be saved without the baptism of water or that the baptism of desire will not be followed by the baptism of water.The text does not say it. You have to assume that it is refers to a visible- for- us baptism of desire or, a baptism of desire which excludes the baptism of water.
Remember, I asked you to quote me any such text and you could not.You could not cite any pope, saint or Church document before 1949.Since there is no precedent.
______________________________
Lionel:
The popes have been interpreting magisterial documents with this inference of being able to see in heaven and on earth people who are saved with the baptism of desire etc.They can see the dead ?! It is with this irrationality that theology produces heretical results. The liberals accept the result and the traditionalists and sedevacantists reject it.

SPERAY REPLIES: No pope has ever implied even by inference of being able to see the dead. You personal made-up theology is a lie.
Lionel:
When a pope, traditionalist or sedevacantist says there are defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus it is being inferred that these exceptions are visible to us ( though dead) and so they are exceptions. They are exceptions since they are known.If they were not within our reality they would not be exceptions.
Lionel:
Sedevancantism is unfortunate. They use the same irrational premise which changes doctrine and theology. It is the same error being made by the popes.Sedevacantists have only have to avoid the inference in the interpretation of magisterial documents, example Vatican Council II, and the result is traditional.
SPERAY REPLIES: This statement is so silly, it’s not worth responding to.
Lionel:
Some time back I listed 10 questions 1 regarding this issue. You  ignored those questions. Possibly you did  not understand the concept.
If  you understood the concept and could answer those questions you would realize that there is no rational basis for sedevacantism with respect to Vatican Council II . Since without the irrational inference, which you now use, the Council is in agreement with the Syllabus of Errors and the rest of Tradition.There is nothing to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in Vatican Council II.So the traditional ecclesiology and teaching on ecumenism and other religions would not have changed.
Lionel:
No one has yet explained this to Pope Francis. This irrationality has been the hallmark of the Jesuits since the time they expelled Fr.Leonard Feeney from their community.
SPERAY REPLIES: You don’t know the Catholic Faith, and you don’t know Feeney. You’ve simply created a religion that exist only in your head. Do us all a favor and stop spreading Lionelism in comment sections. Keep it on your own blog.
Lionel:
You at least are in no postion to explain it the pope. You first have to decide if  the baptism of desire and all references to salvation can be considered visible or invisible for us. If you consider these cases as being exceptions to Tradition then you are implying (whether you know it or not) that they are visible for you. You have decided.
So who is going to point this error to the popes ? Not you.Like the other sedevacantists you will reject Vatican Council II, which  you look at  superficially.You assume possibilities (LG 16,LG 8,UR 3,NA 2 etc) are  exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Tradition, when they are not. Since possibilities cannot be defacto exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation in the present times.
-Lionel Andrades
Feast of St.Francis Xavier.

1.
The Social Reign of Jesus Christ has been made obsolete with alleged salvation outside the Catholic Church known to us 
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-social-reign-of-jesus-christ-has.html



From Pope Pius XII to Pope Francis they all have been using an irrational premise in the interpretation of magisterial texts
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/12/from-pope-pius-xii-to-pope-francis-they.html

How would Pope Francis or Cardinal Muller know if Our Lady is really appearing at Medugorje ? Dogmas and doctrines are no more accepted as a measure

How would Pope Francis or Cardinal Muller know if Our Lady is really appearing at Medugorje ? Dogmas and doctrines are no more accepted as a measure.
The Catholic Church prohibited the apparitions of Vassula Ryden based on her alleged concept of God the Father and the Trinity. 
Now how will the Vatican decide on Medugorje which has not been prohibited by the Commission which has finished its investigation. 
With the pontificate of Pope Francis a new situation has developed. Pope Francis is known  to have contradicted the Church's teachings on faith and morals. So doctrine can no longer be a measure. 
If Our Lady of Medugorje tomorrow says outside the Church there is no salvation citing the dogma, she will contradict Pope Francis.
He recently  said all go to Heaven. At Medugorje Our Lady said there is Hell. 
If she issues a comment on homosexual marriages it could be ideological for Pope Francis. In England, Catholic politicians who support homosexual marriages are given the Eucharist with the approval of the Vatican . Pope Francis has approved the Eucharist to be given to pro abortion politicians in the USA.Some of them in public even support late term abortions.
Pope Francis and Cardinal Gerhard Muller are interpreting Vatican Council II using apparition theology 1. If Our Lady interpreted Church documents without this irrational theology, the apparitions would be suspect.
I would like to be faithful to the magisterium as in the case of Pope John Paul II but this magisterium is not faithful to the magisterium itself, of the past. The pope has contradicted the infallible teachings of the past. 
Pope Francis is my pope but when he contradicts the traditional teachings of the Church on faith and morals , I reject it.I refuse to interpret Vatican Council II with apparition theology.Since objective reality does not change. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
So what would be the criteria for not approving Medugorje ? Dogma ? Doctrines? Vatican Council II ?
Supernatural phenomenon? Is there not enough supernatural phenomena seen on Medugorje.How can the supernatural phenomena be refuted ? With doctrine?!
-Lionel Andrades
1.

Cardinal Muller has alleged apparitions like Medugorje : apparition theology for the SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculate http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/12/cardinal-muller-has-alleged-apparitions.html

Msgr.Joseph Clifford Fenton had only to say that the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance, necessity of precept and means are hypothetical and so irrelevant to Fr.Feeney's interpretation of the dogma

The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made an objective mistake and Msgr.Fenton could not say it in public.
JCFenton
Msgr.Joseph Clifford Fenton had only to say that we do not know any one on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance or according to the necessity of precept and means, since these are hypothetical cases.So they are not objective exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted over the centuries.
 
He never criticised the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 on this point.
 
Tantumblogo on A Blog for Dallas Area Catholics has a post A doubting voice from Vatican Council II from a priest who was there.
Many of Msgr. Fenton's writings are hard to find, but there are some here on the vital and greatly misunderstood Dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (I do not recommend wandering around this site, generally)  http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2014/12/02/a-doubting-voice-from-vatican-ii-from-a-priest-who-was-there/
 
Tantumblogo also interprets extra ecclesiam nulla salus assuming that those saved with the baptism of desire etc are visible to us in real life.Hypothetical cases for him are defacto exceptions to the dogmatic teaching.
 
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton on Vatican Council II

  • “The statement of the Council is not a theological text book. At the same time, however, a declaration by a council can cause confusion or finally can actually be harmful when even though there is no error about faith or morals in it, the statement passes over Truths which are, and which have long been generally been recognized as, assertions of Catholic doctrine.” (May 11, 1963)

  • Lionel:
    He still has not commented on the irrational inference used in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and which was now being used in Vatican Council II.

    • “There is nothing erroneous in the material [in the schema for Dei Verbum, the dogmatic constitution on divine revelation] we have passed. But there is a great deal that is incomplete and misleading.” (June 4, 1964)
    • “M [Fr. John Courtney Murray] has just come in to see the triumph of his false doctrine [of religious liberty].” (Sept. 21, 1964)
    • “The part on ecumenism [in the text of the commission] is a joke. It reads like a 19th century text, or a second-rate article in a leftist magazine.” (Oct. 28, 1965)
    Lionel:
    Mosgr Fenton does not say that 'those saved in imperfect communion with the Church'(Unitatis Redintigration 3, The Decree on Ecumenism) are not known and visible to us, they are not objective. So they could not be relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
    There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the traditional teachings on ecumenism and other religions unless one assumes that UR 3 etc refer to known and visible to cases.
    The same with NA 2, LG 8, LG 16 etc.
    For the theologians of that time these hypothetical cases were objectively visible and so so were relevant to the dogma. They were exceptions! This was the error that Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton did not notice or noticed, but did not speak it out in public for whatever reason.
    -Lionel Andrades

    The Theological Proof For The Necessity Of The Catholic Church (American Ecclesiastical Review, March 1948)
    http://www.romancatholicism.org/fenton/proof1.html
    http://www.romancatholicism.org/fenton/

    3rd Dec 2014 5.00 p.m Mass in Konkani

    From Pope Pius XII to Pope Francis they all have been using an irrational premise in the interpretation of magisterial texts


    From Pope Pius XII to Pope Francis they all have been using an irrational premise in the interpretation of magisterial texts.
    For instance the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments and also the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. This is a contradiction.It is contrary to  the Principle of Non Contradiction. How can you say that de facto God is not limited to the Sacraments and also say God is limited to the Sacraments for salvation?
    This error was not corrected by Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI. Pope Francis has also accepted it as have all the cardinals and bishops.
    Pope Pius XII and all the popes who have followed him have accepted that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance  are visible to us in the present times. They would have to be visible and known to us to be explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney. We have it here once again.Defacto every one needs to enter the Church ( extra ecclesiam nulla salus) but some do not have to enter the Church for salvation?
    The popes have been interpreting magisterial documents with this inference of being able to see in heaven and on earth people who are saved with the baptism of desire etc. They can see the dead ?! It is with this irrationality that theology produces heretical results. The liberals accept the result and the traditionalists and sedevacantists reject it.
    Sedevancantism is unfortunate. They use the same irrational premise which changes doctrine and theology. It is the same error being made by  the popes.Sedevacantists have  only have to avoid the inference in the interpretation of magisterial documents, example  Vatican Council II, and the result is traditional.
    No one has yet explained this to Pope Francis. This irrationality has been the hallmark of the Jesuits since the time they expelled Fr.Leonard Feeney from their community.
    -Lionel AndradesFeast of St.Francis Xavier.

    Video Chapel veils







    Crumbs

    Crumbs Of Jesus’ Holy Body Are Being Dropped On Church Floors And Being Walked On

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    Goans celebrate feast of St.Francis Xavier today


    St.Francis Xavier, born Francisco de Jasso
    y Azpilicueta, on 7th April 1506 was the sixth
    and last child born to Dr. Joao de Xavier
     and Maria d’Aspilcueta at Xavier castle,
    Navarra(now part of  Spain). He was a
    Roman Catholic missionary who preached
     the  Gospel of Jesus Christ to the people of
    Asia and was the co-founder of the Society
    of Jesus. Francis Xavier was beatified
    by Pope Paul V on 25th October 1619,
    and was canonized by Pope Gregory XV
     on 22nd March 1622. Pope Pius XI
    proclaimed him the "Patron of Catholic
     Missions". His feast  is celebrated on
    3rd December. The body of St Francis
    Xavier  which miraculously defied the
     laws of nature, of turning  into dust, lies
     till this day in a silver casket in the
    Church of Bom Jesus Basilica in Goa,
     India. Ceremonies to honor  his death
     are performed on December 3rd, all
    over the  World, the day he was
    buried . The exposition of the  sacred
     relics of St. Francis Xavier which is
     held every 10 years will be held this
    November from 22nd of  November 2014
    till 4th of January 2015, which will  be the
    17th public  Exposition of the Sacred Relics 
     of the Saint. The theme for this Exposition
    is  " Faith Creates Communion, Strengthens
     Family,  Commissions to Renew the Society
    " / " Bhavart  Ekchar Rochta,
     Kuttumb Thirayta, Somaz Novsorunk 
     Pattoyta ". This Official website of the
     Exposition  of the Sacred Relics of St.
    Francis Xavier 2014 will try and help you
     with all the information you seek to make
    your Pilgrimage of faith in Goa  fruitful a
    nd enriching.
























    http://www.archgoadaman.org/
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    Inaugural Ceremony of the Exposition of the Sacred Relics of St. Francis Xavier 2014
    The Exposition of the Sacred Relics of St. Francis Xavier 2014 began on the 22nd Nov 2014 with the Solemn Pontifical Mass at 9:30 a.m. The main celebrant of the Eucharistic celebration was Bishop of Manglore Aloysius D’Souza, along with Archbishop of Goa and Daman Filip Neri Ferrao and other Bishops con-celebrated the Eucharistic Celebration.
    In His Homely His Grace Aloysius D’Souza spoke about the life of St. Francis Xavier and how he conquered millions of souls. After the Mass the Relics of St Francis Xavier were taken in a procession in prayer and reflection. The Relics were carried by different groups of faithful belonging to different association of the Church.
    The casket was taken to Se Catedral and has been kept for public veneration till 4th January 2015. Thousands of pilgrims including priests, nuns and religious participated in the Inaugural ceremony of the Exposition of the Sacred Relics of St. Francis Xavier 2014.

    http://petercanisiusmichaeldavidkang.com/2014/12/02/wednesday-3-december-2014-feast-of-st-francis-xavier-priest-and-patron-of-missions-gospel-reading/