Friday, February 17, 2012

EWTN'S NEW REPORT ON OUTSIDE THE CHURCH NO SALVATION ASSUMES THOSE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ETC ARE EXPLICITLY KNOWN TO US AND SO CONTRADICTS THE DOGMA


EWTN has placed a report on the internet titled Outside the Church No Salvation which criticizes ‘ the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved)’ and claims it has ‘been condemned by the Magisterium.’

 In other words EWTN says every one does not have to convert into the Church for salvation (Pope Pius IX, Allocution), the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are defacto, explicitly known cases which  contradict ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).Also EWTN suggests that  there are is a Magiseterial document which says specifically that Fr.Leonard Feeney was condemned for heresy and which EWTN has not specified.

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation
The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church.

Lionel: The Magisterium of the Church says all need to enter the Church for salvation. (Dominus Iesus 20, Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14, Catechism of the Catholic Church 845,845, Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 etc).

Lumen Gentium 16 and LG 8 are not exceptions to the dogma since we do not know any explicit case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance, good conscience or with ‘elements of sanctification’.

EWTN:
Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Lionel:
EWTN is contradicting the Magisterial documents cited above.

EWTN:
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Lionel:
EWTN assumes that ‘those who are in invincible ignorance of the true religion’ are an exception to the ‘rigorist interpretation’ which is that the Apostolic Roman Church ‘is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge.’

The Church Fathers and the popes knew there was no contradiction.This was the error of the Archbishop of Boston Ruchard Cushing and the Jesuits there. Cushingism says every one needs to enter the Church, except, for those in invincible ignorance etc.Since Cushingism  assumes that these ‘exceptions’ are defacto known to us in the present times.

EWTN:Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Lionel:
 Invincible ignorance is not an exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

When CCC 846 says all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church this is not a contradiction to CCC 846 also saying that all need to enter the Church as ‘through a door’ and that all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. (AG 7).

EWTN:
These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium.

Lionel:
 It depends on the interpretation. Do we interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II according to Cushingism or Feeneyism?

EWTN:
It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

Lionel:
EWTN is still denying the centuries old interpretation of the dogma and assuming that there are defacto exceptions in Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

EWTN  also implies that the popes and Church Councils ex cathedra were wrong. Since it is assumed that they were contradicted by magisterial teachings of popes and Vatican Council II.

EWTN slanders a priest in good standing with the Catholic Church.

-Lionel Andrades

1.

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation
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The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

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Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL


When you overhear the conversations in the corridors of the Angelicum it is “She said.. She did…”

The young men speak in English and though they study religious subjects and theology the conversation can be ‘She said this and she said that’.Of course it is not true for all the students and hopefully most of them.

I attended a class in Ecclesiology and sat with the rest of the students there. Fr.Christian Bernard O.P was denying the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He assumed that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy, since he held there was no baptism of desire. If Fr. Leonard Feeney said there was no baptism of desire or if he said that there was, what difference is it to our understanding of the dogmatic teaching. We do not know of any explicit case on earth of someone saved with the baptism of desire.

Fr. Christian was saying that Jews do not have to convert in the present times and the students enjoyed this tension-free religion. He was giving them an easy faith. The students were glad. During the break, when I was talking to a friend ,among the students, and telling him about the actual teaching of the Church, a few students nearby were irritated. This was not the music, the dolce-stuff they are fed at the Angelicum.

No one’s life is threathened here because of his Catholic Faith. The American priest was feeding them a lolipop religion and they licked it. No one challenged him or corrected his errors.

The former Rector at the Angelicum University, taught that Fr. Leonard Feeney rejected the baptism of desire in his rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. How can the baptism of desire be an exception to the dogma?Do we know any explicit case of a person saved with the baptism of desire?

How can it be an explicit exception to the dogma which says every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation. Without extra ecclesiam nulla salus life is easy at the Angelicum.

Once when I was in the public bus in which there were also  two American seminarians, studying at the Angelicum, I handed them a pamphlet. It said :Vatican Council II affirms the dogma outside the church no salvation. They were dismayed. Their ‘condition deteriorated’ to put it mildly. If they start proclaiming this teaching of the Church it could be the end , of la dolce vita.

Aside from their convenient and politicially safe studies in ecclesiology , the students seem happy with what is being taught in ecumenism. I overheard two young men praising the ecumenical studies there. There is no obligation to ask Protestants to convert. There is no possibility also of friction in their future life over this 'non -issue. 'No mission. No Hell. No need to convert. Life is good.

The American young lady who organised the daily Eucharistic Adoration read the same pamphlet about the need for non Catholics to convert to avoid Hell. It seemed an annoyance for her. She did not consider it a sin of Faith before the Eucharist. She would go for Mass, pass through her theology exams, be there before the Eucharist and deny a defined dogma of the Catholic Church.

Since 2005, Bishop Morerod the former Rector of the Angelicum has been a member of the The Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue Between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. He cannot affirm the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence which says specifically that all Orthodox Christians need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation. http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

How can priests, bishops and lay Catholic students not affirm in public an ex cathedra dogma and still offer Holy Mass ?


The Italian priest Fr. Francesco Giordano picked up an easy Licentiate Degree from the University of St. Thomas Aquinas, Rome with his moderator Fr. Charles Morerod O.P. Vatican Council II it seems mentions defacto exceptions to the dogma on salvation.Fr. Francesco Giordano says when 'prudently possible' that he affirms the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441. He is no more at the Angelicum and offers the Tridentine Rite Mass in Rome.

At the Angelicum they offer an easy faith with no proclamation or mission and so no threats or persecution. This is also the faith of the faculty. Embedded ‘structures of sin’.

So what else are students expected to do ?! ? ‘She said this and she said that’! This is important.
-Lionel Andrades


WILL THE NEW RECTOR AT THE ANGELICUM DENY THE FAITH ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/02/will-new-rector-at-angelicum-deny-faith.html

ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE TRUE RELIGION -Michael Voris, RealCatholicTV.Com
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/02/only-catholic-church-is-true-religion.html

Secretary of the International Theological Commission holds that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/02/secretary-of-international-theological.html