Wednesday, April 25, 2012

FR.TIM FINIGAN ON THE BLOG THE HERMENEUTIC OF CONTINUITY DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION: WOULD YOU KNOW ANY ADULT ON EARTH SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE OR IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ?



Also others on the blog are afraid of supporting the SSPX position on other religions ?

Here are the posts from The hermeneutic of continuity relevant to this subject. Fr.Tim Finigan has not posted my last post in which I have said: So I can conclude that none of you can answer the question: Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?

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"Vatican fails to take account of my travel plans"

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Catholic Mission said...

SSPX WEBSITE: ' I believe in three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins’ ?

So when the SSPX bishops and priests recite their Oath of Fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and they are asked to say aloud the Nicene Constantinople Creed, which we pray in Church, they will say 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and mean ‘I believe in three baptism for the forgiveness of sin, the baptism of water, desire and blood’.

Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer on the SSPX website,THE THREE BAPTISMS writes that Fr.Leonard Feeney in his 1952 book, Bread of Life, states on p.25:

It is now: Baptism of Water, or damnation! If you do not desire that Water, you cannot be justified. And if you do not get it, you cannot be saved."

Yes without the baptism of water no one on earth can be saved and we cannot give anyone the baptism of desire or judge who has a genuine baptism of blood (martyrdom). So obviously any non Catholic you meet needs the baptism of water for salvation.So Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct.

The baptism of desire can never ever be an exception to the need for the baptism of water. Since we cannot know any such case.

So when the SSPX bishops and priests take their oarth of fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and they are asked to recite the Nicene Constantinople Creed they will say 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and mean ‘I believe in three baptism for the forgiveness of sin, the baptism of water, desire and blood’.

CONTINUED

4/20/2012 11:43 AM


Fr Tim Finigan said...

The Church has held since the first centuries that someone who desires baptism will be save. The Church has also taught that this desire may be implicit.

But Baptism of desire is not sacramental baptism and therefore a person who desires baptism can and should be baptised with water when there is the opportunity.

4/20/2012 12:05 PM


Catholic Mission said...

Fr.Tim Finigan

The Church has held since the first centuries that someone who desires baptism will be save. The Church has also taught that this desire may be implicit.

Lionel:
I agree with you.

Would you agree that we do not know any case on earth of someone in 2012, having the baptism of desire and being saved?

These cases are known only in Heaven ?

Fr.Tim Finigan

But Baptism of desire is not sacramental baptism and therefore a person who desires baptism can and should be baptised with water when there is the opportunity.

Lionel:
Yes. We agree.

So would you say every one on earth with no KNOWN EXCEPTIONS needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation ? (AG 7) ?

In Christ

Lionel
4/20/2012 12:10 PM


Catholic Mission said...

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Bishop Charles Morerod O.P Oath of Fidelity: to dissent

Profession of Faith allows for dissent on ecclesiology and baptism.

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J the Secretary of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been the President of the International Theological Commission (ITC), Vatican. Bishop Charles Morerod O.P has been the Secretary of the ITC.

They have had published two papers which are available on the ITC website. In these two theological papers they have written that the Catholic Church no more teaches exclusive salvation. Since there can be those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc. So there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

So when they made their Profession of Faith and took an Oath of Fidelty they recited the Nicene Constantinople Creed in which we pray ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’. However they really meant that not every one on earth needs the baptism of water for salvation. There could be known people saved in invincible ignorance etc. So in actuality there is not one baptism of water for the forgiveness of sin. There are known exceptions in the present times.

There understanding of the Church is also different, even though in the Profession of Faith they said ‘ I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.’(1)

There understanding of Church is based on the false assumption that we know cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and so Vatican Council II (LG 16) and Pope Pius XII's Letter of the Holy Office 1949 have mentioned known exceptions to exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.(2)

There understanding of Church (ecclesiology) is that every one on earth with no exception does not need to enter the Church for salvation. The holy catholic and apostolic Church is not necessary for the salvation of all people with no exception.

CONTINUED

4/20/2012 3:59 PM


Fr Tim Finigan said...

Perhaps the best modern magisterial treatment of this subject is Dominus Iesus.

4/20/2012 4:22 PM


Catholic Mission said...

Fr Tim Finigan

Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?

So would you say every one on earth with no KNOWN EXCEPTIONS needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation in 2012 ?

4/22/2012 3:21 PM


Fr Tim Finigan said...

We do not have the certainty of faith concerning our own salvation, though we should not doubt the mercy of God. (cf. Council of Trent Decree on Justification.)

So we can't say of an individual "he is certainly saved".

But it is reasonable to think that there are many people in the world today who are in invincible ignorance.

Anyone who is not in that state does need baptism of water for salvation unless they die desiring Baptism at least implicitly.

4/22/2012 10:56 PM


Catholic Mission said...

We do not have the certainty of faith concerning our own salvation, though we should not doubt the mercy of God. (cf. Council of Trent Decree on Justification.)

So we can't say of an individual "he is certainly saved".

But it is reasonable to think that there are many people in the world today who are in invincible ignorance.

Anyone who is not in that state does need baptism of water for salvation unless they die desiring Baptism at least implicitly.

Lionel:

Yes, we agree here. There is the possibility of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.We accept this is as a possibility, of course.

Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ? I do not.

Would Mariana ,Gor,Brian or any one else in 2012 know ?

4/23/2012 3:10 PM


Tim Finigan said...

Lionel - We cannot have certainty about a particular individual's salvation unless the Church canonised someone, but it is possible for an individual to be saved if he is in invincible ignorance.

I think we have rather done this topic now.

All Human Creatures Are Subject to the Pope: Eight Papal Quotes On Salvation




All Human Creatures Are Subject to the Pope: 8 Papal Quotes On Salvation

by Carlos Urbina
on Apr 18, 2012
http://www.stpeterslist.com/5130/every-human-creature-is-subject-to-the-pope-8-papal-quotes-on-salvation-outside-the-church/

PROFESSORS AT THE LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST UNIVERSITIES IN ROME SUPPORT THE SSPX POSITION ON OTHER RELIGIONS

Fr.Rafael Pascual L.C, Dean of Philosophy at the University Pontificial Regina Apostolorum(UPRA) and Mr. Corrada Gnerre a Professor of Philophical Anthropology at the Universita Europa di Roma affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

They also know that we do not know any case of a non Catholic saved who can be an exception to the defined dogma. The text of the dogma also does not mention invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire since they know at that possibilities were not defacto exceptions to the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation.

The dogma is in agreement with Vatican Council II(AG 7) and LG 16 is not an exception as is often claimed.

So Vatican Council II is in agreement with the traditional teaching of the church on ecumenism and other religions which has also been that of the traditionalists Society of St.Pius X, Institute of the Good Shepherd and the Priestly Fraternity of St.Peter (FSSP).-Lionel Andrades


LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE

CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS


CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME WHO OFFER THE NOVUS ORDO MASS IN ITALIAN UNKNOWINGLY SUPPORT THE SSPX POSITION ON OTHER RELIGIONS: THEY CONFIRM THAT THERE IS NO CASE KNOWN OF BEING SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE (LG 16)IN THE PRESENT TIME

So if the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 assumes that the baptism of desire contradicted the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus they made a mistake.

The participants in the Vatican-SSPX talks also did not realize that there are no explicit exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II, to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Catholic priests in Rome to whom I spoke to, say that there is no known case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.Some say quite plainly that the baptism of desire etc do not contradict the literal intepretation of the dogma. Others do not want to comment further.

They know that we have returned to the centuries old intepretation of the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and this is essentially the positon of the Society of St.Pius X on ecumenism and inter religious dialogue.

It means Vatican Council II (AG 7) says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation-just as the SSPX teaches,and there are no known exceptions, this includes invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16).

So the priests are really saying, but do not want to put it into words, that Vatican Council II holds to the traditional teaching on Hindus,Jews, Buddhists,Muslims etc.

While priests who offer Mass in Italian here admit there is no visible baptism of desire there is no such comment from SSPX theologians.The SSPX bishops still believe that Vatican Council II contradicts the traditional teaching on ecumenism and other religions.Since, the bishops assume, there is a visible baptism of desire.

The Novus Ordo-priests are pointing to the traditional teaching in Vatican Council II.
-Lionel Andrades