Tuesday, December 11, 2012

THE INTERPRETATION OF THE CATECHISM HAS A DIRECT BEARING ON THE MEDUGORJE MESSAGE OF VICKA

Julie:
“There is no salvation outside the Church” is meant to be understood that all are saved through the Catholic Church whether they are Catholic or not. It does not mean we must become members in order to be saved.

Lionel:
Vatican Council II says we must be ‘members in order to be saved’.

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.- Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II

All need faith and baptism(AG 7) for salvation is also the dogmatic teaching defined thrice.

Julie:
We cannot say that if you are not Catholic you are a heretic.

Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II and the dogma when I meet a non Catholic I know he needs to convert for salvation.

While, when you meet a non Catholic you cannot say that he is saved through Jesus and the Church- you do not know. You do not know if he will be saved with the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance etc.This is known only to God.

Julie:
All Christians are connected in our common belief in Jesus and the Church recognizes that the Jewish people are still held in God’s favor.

Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II and the dogma they need to convert for salvation.While you and I do not know any exception on earth.

Julie:
The Catechism of The Catholic Church should be your point of reference for understanding and preaching the faith.

Lionel:
We have the same Catechism of the Catholic Church but two interpretations. One affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(mine) and the other assumes that there are known, explicit exceptions to the dogma(yours).

Julie:
Your comments do not reflect that.

Lionel:
My comments are based on reason. All those who are saved are definitely saved through Jesus and the Church and since these cases are not known to us they do not contradict the dogma on salvation.

Julie:
Pulling passages out of the Second Vatican Council document is not prudent.

Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 agrees with the dogma on salvation.So would Dominus Iesus 20 etc.

Julie:
The Catechism is very clear on Baptism and Baptism of Desire.

Lionel:
Yes. The Catechism does not say that we know cases on earth saved with the baptism of desire or that these cases are explicit and so are an exception to the dogma. You have to imply this error.

Julie:
Baptism is the ordinary means of salvation but those who are not even Christian can be saved if through no fault of their own they are not aware of Jesus but attempt to live their lives that are pleasing to Him.

Lionel:
Yes.Agreed. And since these cases are not known to us they are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.

Julie:
To say that Christians of another denomination are not united to Catholics is error. They are baptized and are already one with us in their belief of Jesus.

Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 says they need Catholic Faith for salvation.

They do not have the Sacraments.They commit mortal sins. They divorce, contracep and abort and this is permitted by their communities.

The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 like Vatican Council II says they need to convert for salvation. Cantate Domino refers to them as schismatics and heretics.

Julie:
Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Lionel:
For example Unitatis Redintigratio (UR) on Ecumenism in Vatican Council II refers to those in ‘imperfect communion with the Church’.

We do not know a single specific case of such a person saved. You will assume these cases are known and so interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church accordingly.

I will accept them in principle as possibilities known to God only and so irrelevant to the dogma on salvation and not a contradiction of AG 7.

The interpretation is important since it is directly linked to the Medugorje message of Vicka.-Lionel Andrades





If Vatican Council II is in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus them most people do not go to Heaven.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/12/if-vatican-council-ii-is-in-accord-with.html#links

Medugorje comment

Here is an interesting comment on Medugorje.

Posted by thomas on Monday, Dec 10, 2012 7:06 PM (EDT):>>>>Posted by
Carol Cohoon on Thursday, Dec 6, 2012 3:52 PM (EDT):Julir: Our Lady never said “ALL RELIGIONS ARE THE SAME” What she did say is we should “RESPECT ALL RELIGIONS” Big difference!!!!

Medjugorje: Oct. 1, 1981: “All religions are equal before God,” says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317) WRONG!

Holy Roman Catholic Church: The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded upon his death on the Cross. All other religions are heretical, false, and therefore anathema. CORRECT!

Medjugorje: “I do not dispose of all graces…Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary.” (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278) WRONG

Holy Roman Catholic Church: The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), “...she [Mary] is our Mother in the order of grace.” “For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix.”

Pope Leo XIII: She has “practically limitless power”

Pope St. Pius X: She is the “dispensatrix of all the gifts” and the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body of Christ to the Members. And all power flows through the neck.

Pius XII: “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”

Mary is the Mediatrix of all Grace. The teaching is infallible. CORRECT

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

“God directs all denominations as a king directs his subjects, through the medium of his ministers” (“The Apparitions at Medjugorje,” by Fr. Svat Kraljevic, 1984, p.58)

“It is you who are divided on this earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, like the Catholics, are equal before my Son and before me, for you are all my children.” (Fr. Ljubic, p.71)

“The Madonna said that religious are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son.” Ivanka Ivankovic (The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Francisco Herald Press, 1984)

Question: “Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?” Answer: “No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son.” Vicka Ivankovic. (The Visions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin’s Press, August, 1992)

The last one is a beaut. No, Our Lady is NOT calling people to be Catholic?? That should send a million RED flags up. ALL religions are dear? The Roman Catholic Church has already declared these as heresies.

Medjugoje is NOT from Heaven. The church has declared the dogma “Outside the church there is no salvation…” 3 times.

Pope Innocent III: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

Pope Boniface VIII: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

Pope Eugene IV: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Cantate Domino, 1441.)
 http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/vatican-medjugorje-commission-findings-not-imminent#ixzz2EjLB2Ikg
 
Lionel: If Our Lady did say that all religions are equal and every one does not have to convert into the Church for salvation could she be just repeating what the present Magisterum has been saying since the 1940's and right through Vatican Council II ? And it is the Magisterium which decides if the apparitions are authentic.

Recently Archbishops at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), Vatican said in the media that the SSPX will have to accept that non Catholics do not have to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation, and then only will they be granted canonical status.

The CDF Secretary in two theological papers of the International Theological Commission has said that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for denying the exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 does not say so. He has to imply it and he does!

Cardinal Camilio Ruini assumes that the baptism of desire etc are known exceptions to the traditional teaching on salvation. For him these cases are visible on earth. He can see people dead and saved  on earth.

So now imagine Our Lady saying all or most people are oriented to Hell.Would  Cardinal Schonberg welcome the Medugorje  seers in Austria as he did  recently?

What would be the political reaction of non Catholics to the Medugorje message?