Thursday, April 24, 2014

Prof. Gavin D'Costa on the Bishop's Conference website infers Vatican Council II cites explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Conference of Bishops of England and Wales infers there are exceptions to the traditional teaching on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
CBCEW plaque - front door
There is no text in Vatican Council II which states there are known exceptions yet this is taken for granted by the Bishops.
 
It is an objective error to assume that the deceased saved with 'seeds of the Word' or ' a ray of that Truth' can be named or seen physically.
 
Professor Gavin D'Costa on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales infers that those saved with 'rays of light' found in other religions(NA 2) and seeds of the Word (AG 11) mentioned in Vatican Council II refer to cases visible to us in real life.Since they are explicit for him he infers that they are exceptions to the traditional teaching on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
 
There is no text in Vatican Council II including NA 2 and AG 11 which states that these cases are explicit for us in 2014 or that they are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, defined by three Church Councils.Yet the English professor assumes that there are such text.
 
All salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is implicit for us and explicit only for God. So hypothetical cases, accepted as possibilities of salvation cannot be objective, known exceptions to traditional teaching on other religions and Christian communities.
 
On the video of the Bishop's Conference website Gavin D'Costa makes a factual error when he assumes that the deceased  saved with 'seeds of the Word' or 'a ray of that one Truth'  are visible to the naked eye. He cannot name any such person in England who has been saved or will be saved.This is irrational.
 
Professor Gavin D'Costa:
What does the Catholic Church officially think of other religions, some positive and some negative(3:38). The questions often asked are "Is my Hindu friend saved?"(3:58), or "Can a non Catholic or Christian be saved?"(4:04).
 
Lionel:
Yes as a possibility.However it is not to be infered that we know any such case. The ordinary means of salvation is 'faith and baptism' (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II). Nostra Aetate 2 ( a ray of the Truth) is not the ordinary means of salvation.Neither do we know of any case in particular who does not need faith and baptism for salvation .He should not imply  that implicit for us cases are visible and so become exceptions.


Professor Gavin D'Costa:

He then says that Vatican Council II (4:08) "taught very clearly and unambigously that Yes, a person can be saved who is not a member of the Catholic Church.and in that sense it emphasized God's grace and love towards all people the desire for God to reach out to whoever seeks God in whatever way they can".

Lionel:
Yes hypothetically a person can be saved who is not a member of the Catholic Church. In reality we do not know any such case. We do not know if there were one or two such cases in 2014 or if there was no such case. He is infering here that we do know such cases and so this is relevant to the traditional teaching which states that all non Catholics are on the way to Hell unless they enter the Catholic Church.
 
Professor Gavin D'Costa:
He then says that "this is not relativisation of Catholicism saying it is one among other religions.Since the Council also taught that the Catholic Church is the true Church in the sense that Jesus Christ is the self Revelation of God and that is how God has come to speak to us ".
 
Lionel:
He only refers to Jesus being the Saviour in the sense that he is the Saviour of all who are saved. He ignores Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism. He ignores the necessity to be a visible member of the Catholic Church (with faith and baptism) for salvation.
If someone is saved in another religion it would not be known to D'Costa. So this case would not be an exception to all needing faith and baptism in England to go to Heaven.
Prof.D'Costa does not say this since he infers that those saved in other religions through Jesus and the Church, are known exceptions.
CCC 847 and 848 contradict CCC 846 for him and AG 7 is contradicted by NA 2 and AG 11 since these implicit for us cases are assumed to be explicit. 

Professor Gavin D'Costa:

"People are not damned if they are not Catholics" (5:09)
 
Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II (AG 7) they are damned if they are not Catholics, since all need faith and baptism for salvation and they do not have it. According to CCC 846 and AG 7 all need to enter the Church as through a door.This is an affirmation of Outside the Church There is No Salvation.
 
Professor Gavin D'Costa:
The second point he makes
What does the Church think of other religions he asks and says " Nostra Aetate produced in Vatican II said the following which is well worth remembering 'there are elements of truth goodness and beauty and seeds and rays of light to be found in these other religions.
 
Lionel:
No where in Vatican Council II are these invisible for cases claimed to be visible for us. So one can not infer that they are exceptions.
 
Professor Gavin D'Costa:
 He then says Pope John Paul II taught that the Holy Spirit is present in these religions (5:53)
 
Lionel:
Pope John Paul II also said in Dominus Iesus that other religions have errors and superstition and they are not an equal path to salvation as the Catholic Church.
The Holy Spirit can be present in other religions but we cannot say that any one has been saved in other religion through the Holy Spirit.
-Lionel Andrades
Video Professor Gavin D'Costa. Catholicism and Other Faiths 
 http://www.cbcew.org.uk/CBCEW-Home/Departments/Dialogue-and-Unity/Other-Religions
 

If the Bishop's Conference did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/if-bishops-conference-did-not-use-this.html#links
 

This is the Magisterium today!

If the Bishop's Conference did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/if-bishops-conference-did-not-use-this.html#links

Catechetical programs of the USCCB in Boston, Worcester, Manchester are using a false premise http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/catechetical-programs-of-usccb-in.html

Dominicans in Nashville still silent : how do they interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church ?


Cardinals and bishops are promoting a lie in public for political and personal reasons : the Catholic Faith is denied

Catholic bishops of Dallas, Fort Worth, Charlotte, Florida, USA approved a Mandatum to teach there is known salvation outside the Church and the dead-saved are visible to us

Pope John Paul II whose teachings on faith, morals and the Eucharist have been compromised will be canonised by those who reject him

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J and Pope Benedict XVI made a factual error : Analysis

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/cardinal-luiz-ladaria-sj-and-pope.html

Bishop Michael Olson is not willing to say all Muslims and other non Catholics are on the way to Hell according to Vatican Council II (AG 7) unless they enter the Catholic Church

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/bishop-michael-olson-is-not-willing-to.html


MULLER, LADARIA, DI NOI, POZZO, KASPAR AND KOCH WANT THE SSPX TO INTERPRET VATICAN COUNCIL II WITH THE 'RIGHT HAND SIDE' COLUMN FOR CANONICAL STATUS

 
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/01/padre-pio-prayer-groups-neo_31.html#links
 
Archbishop Gerhard Muller was using the false premise : here is the proof! http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/06/archbishop-gerhard-muller-was-using.html#links
 
-Lionel Andrades
 

Divine Mercy Novena of St.Faustina Kowalski : Seventh Day

Seventh Day
Today bring to Me the Souls who especially venerate and glorify My Mercy*, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls sorrowed most over my Passion and entered most deeply into My spirit. They are living images of My Compassionate Heart. These souls will shine with a special brightness in the next life. Not one of them will go into the fire of hell. I shall particularly defend each one of them at the hour of death.
Most Merciful Jesus, whose Heart is Love Itself, receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who particularly extol and venerate the greatness of Your mercy. These souls are mighty with the very power of God Himself. In the midst of all afflictions and adversities they go forward, confident of Your mercy; and united to You, O Jesus, they carry all mankind on their shoulders. These souls will not be judged severely, but Your mercy will embrace them as they depart from this life.
Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls who glorify and venerate Your greatest attribute, that of Your fathomless mercy, and who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls are a living Gospel; their hands are full of deeds of mercy, and their hearts, overflowing with joy, sing a canticle of mercy to You, O Most High! I beg You O God:

Show them Your mercy according to the hope and trust they have placed in You. Let there be accomplished in them the promise of Jesus, who said to them that during their life, but especially at the hour of death, the souls who will venerate this fathomless mercy of His, He, Himself, will defend as His glory. Amen.

*The text leads one to conclude that in the first prayer directed to Jesus, Who is the Redeemer, it is "victim" souls and contemplatives that are being prayed for; those persons, that is, that voluntarily offered themselves to God for the salvation of their neighbor (see Col 1:24; 2 Cor 4:12). This explains their close union with the Savior and the extraordinary efficacy that their invisible activity has for others. In the second prayer, directed to the Father from whom comes "every worthwhile gift and every genuine benefit,"we recommend the "active" souls, who promote devotion to The Divine Mercy and exercise with it all the other works that lend themselves to the spiritual and material uplifting of their brethren.
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/novena.htm#6
 

Wednesday, April 23, 2014

If the Bishop's Conference did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II

Departments

Here is a passage from the website of the Bishop's Conference of England and Wales.It assumes that Nostra Aetate 2  ( a ray of the one Truth) refers to something visible and known in 2014. It infers that those saved with 'a ray of the one Truth' are personally known and visible  in 2014. Since these deceased-saved with a 'ray of the one Truth' are allegedly explicit, objectively seen in England, they are known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So for the Bishop's Conference Nostra Aetate is a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Catechism of Pope Pius X and the Syllabus of Errors.

Summary: The Vatican II document Nostra Aetate gave new life to the Church’s relationship with other religions. Members of other religions were presented as people with whom Christians should engage in dialogue and collaboration, and from whose spiritual lives inspiration can be drawn. This relationship has been actively fostered, particularly by recent Popes who have further expounded Church teaching through their pronouncements and actions.
The Church has different relationships with each religion, but first among these is the relationship with the Jewish people. The Church’s roots are in the history of God’s relationship with the Jewish people. Nostra Aetate makes clear that the Jews remain especially beloved by God and categorically rejects all forms of anti-Semitism.

Nostra Aetate recognises that there are elements of truth and holiness in other religions and acknowledges that the Holy Spirit is at work in them. Other religions contain ‘seeds of the Word’ and ‘a ray of the one Truth’. God’s good plan, and the promise of eternal life, applies to every human being. At the same time, Christ is the only one through whom it is possible to come to this eternal life. What is true and holy in other religions does not replace the Good News of Chris-tianity, but can create a fertile environment for it.

If the Bishop's Conference assumed that  'a ray of the one Truth'(NA 2) was invisible for us and known to only God then NA 2 would not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Tradition. It is based on this irrationality of being able to see the dead on earth saved with a 'ray of the one Truth' that the Bishops Conference can deny the dogma on exclusive salvation.
 
If the Bishop's Conference   did not use this irrationality the Catholic Church in England and Wales  would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism and Vatican Council II(Nostra Aetate etc).
 Here is another passage from the Bishop's Conference website with the irrational inference.

CAN GOD SAVE THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH? Yes! The Church teaches that the saving grace of Christ is present outside the visible confines of the Church, in the work of the Holy Spirit bestowed on others and is still related to Christ and the Church.from MGFS Summary Leaflet (Leeds) available on the Bishop's Conference website.   
 Here the Bishop's Conference again implies that those saved outside the visible confines of the Church' are physically visible to us.It is irrational to assume that these cases can be seen in the flesh and then to go ahead and build a fantasy theology upon this irrational observation.
'The Church affirms the unity of all humanity and recognises the God-given presence of truth and holiness in other religions' the Bishop's Conference  states ignoring Dominus Iesus of Pope John Paul II. Dominus Iesus  says other religions have errors and superstition and 'it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by other religions, seen as complimentary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her'.
1.If they did not use this irrationality, then the Bishop's Conference, like Bishop Michael Campbell, the Bishop of Lancaster,   would be affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as being in accord with the Catechism (1993) and Vatican Council II.
 
2 Since the Bishop's Conference  uses this irrationality, on the website of the Lancaster diocese  it is not stated that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. 
 
3 In no document of Pope Pius XII is it stated that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yet this error is implied in all the dioceses of England and Wales. It is part of the Catholic Certificate in Religious Studies Course (CCRS).It is part of Catechesis and adult education of the Catholic Faith.
-  Lionel Andrades 
 

 
CCBEW ECUMENICAL OFFICERS, CATECHISTS AGREE THAT THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS NOT AN EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/07/without-richard-cushing-error.html#links


 
The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salushttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commissions.html#links

Monday, March 26, 2012
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commission.html#links


VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONShttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/vaticans-international-theological.html#links   

Meeting God in
Friend & Stranger



 
Fostering respect and mutual understanding
between the religions

 
A teaching document of the
Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales


Deacon Nick Donnellly's CCRS Course omits important point of the Catechism of the Catholic Church


Deacon Nick Donnellly in the Catholic diocese of Lancaster, England was the Designer and Writer of the Catholic Certificate in Religious Studies Course (CCRS).On his blog Protect the Pope, managed by Mrs.M.Donnelly, I asked how do they interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Do they use an irrational premise ? Do they consider those saved in  'ignorance of the Gospel' as being physically visible to us on earth? Can these cases be exceptions to CCC 846 ( 'the Church is necessary' in 'which all enter through Baptism as through a door', all need 'faith and Baptism) ? If they are not physically visible; if we cannot see these deceased with the naked eye can they be exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus? Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church indicating that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church?
 
Do they assume that CCC 846 is contradicted by CCC 847 and 848 ?
 
The post was wiped off. There was no answer.
-Lionel Andrades 

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.


848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

 
Diocese of Lancaster Education Service - Serving Educational Need & Opportunity

 

If Lancaster Diocese did not use this irrationality Bishop Michael Campbell would have to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with the Catechism (1993) and Vatican Council II

Bp Campbell at work
I have received an e-mail from an official of the Diocese of Lancaster. He states:-
 
Dear Lionel,
Thank you for your fascinating article.(1) I have picked out these three points:
1 If they did not use this irrationality, then Bishop Michael Campbell would be affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as being in accord with the Catechism (1993) and Vatican Council II.

2 Since the bishop and the diocese use this irrationality, on the diocese website it is not stated that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.

3 In no document of Pope Pius XII is it stated that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yet this error is implied in the Diocese of Lancaster.
Can you clarify what it is that Bp Michael/Dioc of Lancaster affirms and explain the substance of the error.
 
My Response:
 

1 If they did not use this irrationality, then Bishop Michael Campbell would be affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as being in accord with the Catechism (1993) and Vatican Council II.
Lionel:
 True, if they did not use the irrationality of being able to see the dead-saved the bishop would have to interpret extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney , the saints and the Church Councils.
2 Since the bishop and the diocese use this irrationality, on the diocese website it is not stated that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
Since Bishop Campbell infers there is salvation outside the Church the website does not state there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church and all need to enter the Church with no exceptions in 2014.
The Bishop cannot name any one in England who is saved this year outside the visible limits of the Church. He does not know any one who is going to be saved in future without 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).
3 In no document of Pope Pius XII is it stated that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yet this error is implied in the Diocese of Lancaster.
I don’t fully understand the second sentence, the comma may be misplaced. Overall I take it you are saying that Bishop Michael infers that there is salvation outside the church (great news for non-catholics) but I am not sure whether your article is claiming that such a view is an error.
Can you clarify what it is that Bp Michael/Dioc of Lancaster affirms and explain the substance of the error.
 
Lionel:
 Bishop Campbell is denying that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church and is infering that there are known exceptions in the present times.
He is rejecting Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism for salvation) and affirms all do not need faith and baptism for salvation. Since for him hypothetical cases mentioned in Vatican Council II (LG 16 etc) are de facto, known in reality.
The basic error is assuming that what is hypothetical, subjective and accepted in principle and faith only, is really defacto, known in reality, objectively seen and explicit for us.This is fantasy. Upon this fantasy he has built a new theology and new ecclesiology which rejects the traditional Catholic teaching on other religions and salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
Moodle

1.
 
Bishop Michael Campbell and the Lancaster diocese interprets the Catechism of the Catholic Church with an irrationality http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/bishop-michael-campbell-and-lancaster.html#links
 
Sisters-of-Mercy-of-Alma1

Millar058

http://www.lancasterdiocese.org.uk/Groups/154848/The_Diocese_of/People_and_Places/Religious_Communities/Religious_Communities.aspx

Divine Mercy Novena of St.Faustina Kowalski : Sixth Day

Sixth Day
 
Today bring to Me the Meek and Humble Souls and the Souls of Little Children,
and immerse them in My mercy. These souls most closely resemble My Heart. They strengthened Me during My bitter agony. I saw them as earthly Angels, who will keep vigil at My altars. I pour out upon them whole torrents of grace. I favor humble souls with My confidence. 
   
Most Merciful Jesus, You yourself have said, "Learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart." Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart all meek and humble souls and the souls of little children. These souls send all heaven into ecstasy and they are the heavenly Father's favorites. They are a sweet-smelling bouquet before the throne of God; God Himself takes delight in their fragrance. These souls have a permanent abode in Your Most Compassionate Heart, O Jesus, and they unceasingly sing out a hymn of love and mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon meek souls, upon humble souls, and upon little children who are enfolded in the abode which is the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls bear the closest resemblance to Your Son. Their fragrance rises from the earth and reaches Your very throne. Father of mercy and of all goodness, I beg You by the love You bear these souls and by the delight You take in them: Bless the whole world, that all souls together may sing out the praises of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.