Wednesday, April 24, 2013

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf does not respond once again


Here is another comment on What Does the Prayer Really Say and Fr.John Zuhlsdorf does not respond.


Supertradmum says:


24 April 2013 at 12:51 am


This is his best sermon yet, and I have read many including the Angelus ones.

Norah, I think you are misunderstanding the teaching of the Church. All grace for those who are not in the Catholic Church comes from the merit of the Catholic Church.
Lionel: True and this does not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Since these particular cases are invisible for us. If they were visible they would be relevant to the dogma. They would be exceptions.

 If we Catholics are not meriting grace, being excellent Catholics, that affects our Christian brothers and sisters in Christ.

As to finding Jesus, it is not through our own efforts that we find Christ. He finds us, through the Church. Now, those who seek Him, will find Him and those who seek Him sincerely, facing conversion from false teachings regarding the sacraments or contraception, will find Christ in the Catholic Church.

Lionel: It is not enough to find Jesus. One can find Jesus and die in mortal sin.One needs the Sacraments of the Church and the moral and faith teachings of the Catholic Church.


Sadly, even our Evangelical friends believe in many things which are contrary to the Faith, and because of this, they struggle and even finally give up the path of perfection, without which no one sees God at death.

Lionel: Without the Catholic Church our Evangelical friends will not be saved.(Ad Gentes 7).The path of perfection required formal entry into the Church, with 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).

How important it is for us Catholics not only to preach, as our Holy Father just did, but to lead others into the Church, the one, true, holy and apostolic Church.
Lionel:Outside of which there is no salvation.(AG 7)

As to the CCC, there is no contradiction, as again, the grace of conversion is from the Church as well.

Lionel: There is no contradiction between the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was understood by the Church Councils, popes, saints and in our time Vatican Council II.


Here are some references for you.


2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Lionel: The Holy Spirit invites all, salvation is open to all.However one must respond.Those who do not respond , who do not enter the Church are on the path to Hell , with Original Sin and mortal sins.One cannot separate Jesus from the Church.



2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.


After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63


IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS


2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”64

Lionel: It is not enough just to love Jesus. We must follow him in the Catholic Church for salvation. One can never be assured of salvation outside the Catholic Church.

2013 “All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity.”65 All are called to holiness: “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Lionel: This perfection is called for in the Catholic Church. They have an obligation to enter the only Church Jesus founded and to seek holiness and perfection.


In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ’s gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67
Lionel: It is the will of the Father that all be united in the Catholic Church (CCC 845), the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saves in the flood (CCC 845).


And, there is more in those sections. Pax.
-Lionel Andrades
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/pope-francis-it-is-not-possible-to-find-jesus-outside-the-church/#comments

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf does not know how to handle a comment on Lumen Gentium 15

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf on his blog What Does the Prayer Really Say is unable to say that Vatican Council II says outside the Church there is no salvation.He is unable to respond to comments on Lumen Gentium being exceptions to the dogma.Lumen Gentium mentions no exceptions to the pope's statement.

Pope Francis has said that the Church is necessary (Dominus Iesus 20 etc) and this is also been the message of Fr.Zuhlsdorf.
But what about Lumen Gentium 15,16,8 etc ?
Is Pope Francis contradicting Vatican Council II ?
No!

Lumen Gentium 15
“For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate ["hierarchical"?!], celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”

It's simple. Lumen Gentium 15 is referring to the possibility of a Christian being saved in his community or church but LG 15 is not saying that these cases are known to us and so are an exception.It is referring only to a possibility and not an exception. It cannot be an exception since these cases are invisible for us.If we knew any particular case then it would be an exception to the dogma on salvation or to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.Ad Gentes 7 is listed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the title Outside the Church No Salvation (CCC 846)

So Lumen Gentium 15 cannot be an exception to Pope Francis' statement.It would be irrational to claim that it is an exception.

For Fr.John Zuhlsdorf and so many  traditionalists LG 15,16,8 etc are visible to us and so are exceptions to the traditional teaching on other Christians and non Catholics.So they are critical of Vatican Council II and assume there are ambiguities where there are none.

-Lionel Andrades



Venerator Sti Lot says:

23 April 2013 at 12:41 pm

How does, or would, the Holy Father dilate upon this in the specific context of Lumen gentium 15 ? (I think especially of, “For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate ["hierarchical"?!], celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”)

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/pope-francis-it-is-not-possible-to-find-jesus-outside-the-church/#comments



Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church .
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/04/pope-celebrates-his-saints-day-with.html#links

Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/04/is-lumen-gentium-14-and-lumen-gentium.html#links

Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church .


Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church


http://youtu.be/Jed_7aRz0Gk

Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?

On Fr.John Zuhlsdorf's blog there have been comments on  Pope Francis statement on the feast of St.George. He said  “it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”.

The comments on his blog What Does the Prayer Really Say ?  refer to Lumen Gentium 14 and 16.Comments consider LG 14 and LG 16  to be exceptions to the Holy Father's statement.
Fr.Z is not expected to answer them.Since he too assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire are physically visible to us and so they are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
LG 14 and 16 are not exceptions to the pope's statement“it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church” since they do not contradict Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and baptism' for salvation.
Vatican Council II (AG 7)is saying all need to know Jesus and know the Catholic Faith and receive the baptism of water to go to heaven and avoid Hell.Members of Christians communities and the Orthodox Churches do not have Catholic Faith. So Pope Francis' statement is in agreement with Vatican Council II.
LG 14 and LG 16 refer to invisible-for- us cases who are known only to God. If they were visible to us, seen in the flesh, then they would be exceptions to AG 7. So there are no exceptions in 2013 to AG 7 and Pope Francis' statement.Vatican Council II is traditional on the issue of other religions and ecumenism and there is no ambiguity.-Lionel Andrades
Jeannie_C says:

Venerator Sti Lot, read Lumen Gentium 14: “…..Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” Also – LG 16: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
I understand the above from Lumen Gentium, as well as the quotation you provide, which is the quotation that fits in between the two I cite to mean that those who are ignorant of Christ, or who are born into other Christian faith communities may also be saved, but – here’s the kicker – once they become aware that the R.C. Church is the original Church founded by Christ upon Peter, they are bound to come into the fold, otherwise there is no salvation for them. These explanations are found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 820 and onward discussing ecumenism and unity.
Here’s the problem I have with ecumenism and keep bumping up against it – most who belong to faith communities separated from the R.C. Church believe that ecumenism means finding a middle ground where we can meet, means our giving up some of our beliefs and core traditions, in short our (R.C.) becoming less and becoming more like them. I don’t believe ecumenism translates into relativism, rather it means finding a middle ground in which to engage discussion, but the end goal is to bring the schismatics and heretics back to Christ’s church. Nothing less, and it is our mandate as Roman Catholics to evangelize protestants as well as those who don’t know Christ.
Of course, I’m not Pope Francis and can’t speak for him, but I don’t believe he would see our faith watered down in order to accommodate those outside the church, but does see those outside the church who have at least some faith and understanding as being on the right track. Again, it is our responsibility to pull them in.(emphasis added)

Australian priest approves Mass for homosexuals

 
He writes 'traditional sexual ethics has dominated church teaching about heterosexual relationships and marriage'. He makes no mention of mortal sin and Hell.
 
The priest says on his website that 'Those doing theology with the insight of the stories of lesbian and gay Catholics and modern science suggest such areas as intimacy, friendship, faithful love and personal growth might be a gift to the church and indeed the world.'. So he could be giving them the Eucharist at Mass.
He says Scripture does not damn homosexuality.
-Lionel Andrades 

http://petermaher.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/newtown-parish-responds-to-video.html?m=1

Longest running Gay Mass in the world in Sydney Archdiocese - Michael Voris

longest running so-called Gay Mass in the world happens right here in the Archdiocese of Sydney-Michael Voris
For the record, on THIS return trip he declined an opportunity to sit down with us on camera and talk with us about the Gay Mass. We also had a pleasant exchange via email with one of the auxiliary bishops who told us .. unlike the pastor .. that he understood our love and concern for the faith.
So .. a year later what’s changed? Well, if you go to the archdiocese of Sydney’s website .. you can see what’s changed. Unfortunately, it isn’t a good change.
First of all, after having been off the website for a few years .. St. Joseph’s in Newtown schedule of activities is back up.
Included .. a fundraising effort sponsored by an organization known as Acceptance – an openly pro-gay lifestyle group which celebrates homosexuality as a wonderful thing.
Which can’t be viewed as surprising considering that Fr. Peter Maher, the pastor at Newtown St. Joseph’s has posted on his blog that he says homosexuality is a gift from God.
He also goes through the usual blather about the scriptures have all been misunderstood   and homosexuality is perfectly acceptable to God – again, he says a GIFT. We’ve attached a link to his blog so you can read for yourself.
The group which is heavily involved in these Friday night Masses is called Acceptance as we mentioned earlier. This group is little else than a gay social club promoting the gay culture with a warped religious overtone...-Michael Voris


 http://youtu.be/fYyRZaQN2UE

“It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”-Pope Francis

Pope: Mass on Feast of St. George

(Vatican Radio) “It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”: this was Pope Francis’ message as he marked his name day, the Feast of St. George, this Tuesday celebrating Mass in the Pauline Chapel with the Cardinals present in Rome. Emer McCarthy reports:
In his homily, the Pope thanked the cardinals for coming to concelebrate with him: "Thank you - he said - because I really feel welcomed by you". Commenting on the readings of the day, the Holy Father highlighted three aspects of the Church: Its missionary activity, born of persecution; the fact that it is a Mother Church which gifts us the faith that is our identity and that you cannot find Jesus outside of the Church; the joy of belonging to the Church bringing Jesus to others. In short the joy of being an evangelizer:
Below we publish a Vatican Radio transcript and translation of the Holy Father’s Homily for Mass with the Cardinals in the Pauline Chapel.
I thank His Eminence, the Cardinal Dean, for his words: thank you very much, Your Eminence, thank you.
I also thank all of you who wanted to come today: Thank you. Because I feel welcomed by you. Thank you. I feel good with you, and I like that.
The [first] reading today makes me think that the missionary expansion of the Church began precisely at a time of persecution, and these Christians went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, and proclaimed the Word. They had this apostolic fervor within them, and that is how the faith spread! Some, people of Cyprus and Cyrene - not these, but others who had become Christians - went to Antioch and began to speak to the Greeks too. It was a further step. And this is how the Church moved forward. Whose was this initiative to speak to the Greeks? This was not clear to anyone but the Jews. But ... it was the Holy Spirit, the One who prompted them ever forward ... But some in Jerusalem, when they heard this, became 'nervous and sent Barnabas on an "apostolic visitation": perhaps, with a little sense of humor we could say that this was the theological beginning of the Doctrine of the Faith: this apostolic visit by Barnabas. He saw, and he saw that things were going well.
And so the Church was a Mother, the Mother of more children, of many children. It became more and more of a Mother. A Mother who gives us the faith, a Mother who gives us an identity. But the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: "Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy." And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful.And the third idea comes to my mind - the first was the explosion of missionary activity; the second, the Mother Church - and the third, that when Barnabas saw that crowd - the text says: " And a large number of people was added to the Lord" - when he saw those crowds, he experienced joy. " When he arrived and saw the grace of God, he rejoiced ": his is the joy of the evangelizer. It was, as Paul VI said, "the sweet and comforting joy of evangelizing." And this joy begins with a persecution, with great sadness, and ends with joy. And so the Church goes forward, as one Saint says - I do not remember which one, here - "amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of the Lord." And thus is the life of the Church. If we want to travel a little along the road of worldliness, negotiating with the world - as did the Maccabees, who were tempted, at that time - we will never have the consolation of the Lord. And if we seek only consolation, it will be a superficial consolation, not that of the Lord: a human consolation. The Church's journey always takes place between the Cross and the Resurrection, amid the persecutions and the consolations of the Lord. And this is the path: those who go down this road are not mistaken.
Let us think today about the missionary activity of the Church: these [people] came out of themselves to go forth. Even those who had the courage to proclaim Jesus to the Greeks, an almost scandalous thing at that time. Think of this Mother Church that grows, grows with new children to whom She gives the identity of the faith, because you cannot believe in Jesus without the Church. Jesus Himself says in the Gospel: " But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep." If we are not "sheep of Jesus," faith does not some to us. It is a rosewater faith, a faith without substance. And let us think of the consolation that Barnabas felt, which is "the sweet and comforting joy of evangelizing." And let us ask the Lord for this "parresia", this apostolic fervor that impels us to move forward, as brothers, all of us forward! Forward, bringing the name of Jesus in the bosom of Holy Mother Church, and, as St. Ignatius said, "hierarchical and Catholic." So be it.