Comments from The Vortex — Heretic or Loyal Son - 3

Lys Bleu 2 days ago

"The false principles are so ingrained in the typical Feeneyite that it would probably be easier to teach demons."~Rev. Anthony Cekada

Lionel: Fr.Cekada assumes invisible cases of the BOD, BOB and I.I are visible exceptions to EENS. This is a false principle. 

Similarly he assumes unknown cases of LG 8, LG 16, UR 3 etc are known exceptions to EENS and so he rejects Vatican Council II. Again he is irrational. In principle there are no physically known cases of BOD BOB and I.I or LG 8 etc.

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Cecilia Christo 2 days ago

Don't the SSPX preach "authentic Catholicism" also, Mr Vorris? 

Lionel: No. They are Cushingites. They assume unknown people in our reality are known examples of salvation outside the Church. With this false premise they have changed our understanding of EENS, Nicene Creed, Catechisms etc .Theologically they are on the same platform as the liberals and the ecclesiastics at the Vatican.

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Joseph Boyat 1 day ago

Michael won't dare debate the Brothers Dimond. They would likely wipe the floor with him and his heresies- including those on baptism of desire and invinceable ignorance. 

Lionel: The Dimond Brothers also assume that there are known cases of BOD, BOB and I.I and so they are rejected, while they affirm Feeneyite EENS. Similarly they wrongly assume there known cases of LG 8 etc in Vatican Council II which would contradict EENS. They are Cushingites on Vatican Council II.They are  only aware of Vatican Council II ( Cushingite) and do not seem know about Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) which would be in harmony with EENS ( Feeneyite).

-Lionel Andrades

Comments from The Vortex — Heretic or Loyal Son - 2

Jimmy Rumney 2 days ago

So Feenyism, which I have seen listed as a heresy, because it denied baptism by desire, is NOT a heresy? I first read about this, and bought it was great until the “h” word continued to pop up. Does this deny baptism by desire? 

Lionel: It is helpful to make the distinction between Feeneyism and Cushingism( according to L.A). With Cushingism the dogma EENS has exceptions of the BOD, BOB and I.I. This was rejected by Fr. Leonard Feeneyism.With Feeneyism( according to L.A) the dogma EENS does not have exceptions to BOD, BOB and I.I. 

Cushingism creates a heretical conclusion. Cushingism today is like the Arian heresy of the past. It has spread throughout the Catholic Church.

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corran483 2 days ago

Not exactly. Fr. Feeney taught that a person could be justified by their desire for baptism, but that ALL persons who do not receive a sacramental (water) baptism are necessarily damned. If justification is synonymous with being in a state of grace, I don't understand how a person could be justified and be damned.

Lionel: All those who do not receive the baptism of water and who die without Catholic faith are damned, is the dogmatic teaching  of EENS.We cannot know of any one justified. This would only be known to God. So we must not confuse what is hypothetical as being relevant to EENS.

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Jimmy Rumney 2 days ago

corran483 That makes sense. I just read an article in the Remnant Newspaper, by John Salza, and he used Feenyism as the extreme side of the no salvation outside the church doctrine. He compared it as the opposite of universalism like Father Baron promotes. If Feeny does not deny baptism by desire, I don’t understand the problem.

 Lionel: John Salza and the Society of St. Pius X priests and lay followers assume there are personally known cases of the BOD. So for them BOD, is an exception to EENS. Only since there are personally known people saved outside the Church can there be exceptions to EENS. This is Cushingite philosophy and theology. The conclusion is non traditional and heretical.

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corran483 2 days ago

@Jimmy Rumney If I understand correctly, the problem is that Fr. Feeney taught that baptism by desire was not enough - it had to lead to a sacramental baptism or it would not lead to salvation. This contradicts the teaching of the Church found in CCC 1260.

Lionel: The reference to the baptism of desire is to a hypothetical case and not a real person known to be saved outside the Catholic Church, in the present times.

So Fr. Leonard Feeney  does not contradict CCC 1260 which refers to a hypothetical case i.e the man in ignorance. Personally we do not know any such person saved outside the Church.

 
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."⁶³ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
-Lionel Andrades

Comments from The Vortex — Heretic or Loyal Son - 1

Comments from

The Vortex — Heretic or Loyal Son

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4g5jc3dBTI&list=PL91feG5gFxM80FB-x7ZBqmNbz3c7Mk0p8

C M 2 days ago

Did or did he not accept and teach BoD and BoB? You're somehow excusing Father Feeney which if true he was excommunicated on wrong charges, whilst lambasting Archbishop Lefebvre whom also stayed faithful and his order of priests get told they are evil by you.

Lionel: He accepted them as hypothetical cases but not as exceptions to EENS. Since literally there are no known cases of the  baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and invincible ignorance(I.I) outside the Catholic Church. 

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Cleider Cordero Guzman 2 days ago

People need to realize that Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire are allowable theological opinions that have not been dogmatically defined by the Church. There have been many saints and doctors and theologians of the Church that have accepted or rejected one or the other. You guys need to relax and calm down and stop giving CM a bad name.

Lionel: None of the saints have said that they refer to known people saved outside the Church. The liberal theologians made this error in the Fr. Leonard Feeney case. They were supported by the Holy Office (CDF) 1949. The error was repeated at Vatican Council II.

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Bruce Haslam 2 days ago

Does this mean that all salvation and graces come through the Catholic Church and only goes to Catholics or does it go out to the whole world. And, based on invincible ignorance, believers can be saved. If we say only official Catholics can be saved. Then, the Divine Mercy phrase "Have. Mercy on us and on the Whole world" should be modified to "Have Mercy on us and all Catholics". Also, I have seen many non - Catholics that have had tremendous conversion experiences, where personal lives had dramatic change, overcoming sin and and perusing Jesus with all their hearts. I attribute these changes to the Holy Spirit. To do otherwise would mimic the Pharisees when they accused Jesus' good works to the Devil. Otherwise, if we say non-Catholics are experiencing conversion by the devil's hand. Then, Satan is divided and his house will fall.

Lionel. All salvation graces come through Jesus and His Mystical Body the Catholic Church. Only Catholics go to Heaven was the dogmatic teaching.
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Richard Genca 2 days ago (edited)

Three examples of Sainthood through Baptism by Blood, but not by Water: The Holy Innocents martyred by King Herod's soldiers; St. Emerentiana, foster-sister of St. Agatha, slain by pagans while she was still a Catechumen, therefore, never baptized by water; One of the guards who converted to the Faith when he witnessed the martyrdom of the ''40 Saints of Sebaste'', and then was immediately slain for being a Christian, but without any chance of receiving Baptism by water. Info from "Tradition in Action'' website.

Lionel: The dogma EENS says all need to be members of the Catholic Church for salvation. This is also the message in Vatican Council II (AG 7).There is no known cases of a St. Emerentiana in 2019. Neither can we say that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water. No one could have seen it.

If there are exceptions they would only be known  to God. But someone cannot be an exception to EENS who does not exist in our human reality.

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JL D 2 days ago

“An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism.” [Pope Pius XII Address to Midwives, 21a]. Was pope Pius XII a heretic?
Lionel: He is referring to a hypothetical case. He was not contradicting EENS.

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JL D 2 days ago

Very bad idea Michael! You are giving your ennemies a helping hand. You're giving them a stick to beat you with. Don't you know that the Feeneyites reject baptism of blood and baptism of desire taught in the St Pius X's catechism (Q. 17) and in CCC 1258 ?
Lionel: They do not reject BOD and BOB. Since they are hypothetical cases only. So they are not practical exceptions to EENS. There are no literal cases of BOD, BOB and I.I. This was also known to Fr. Leonard Feeney. -Lionel Andrades

Michael Voris' presence in New Hampshire augurs well for the Church. The issue is theological according to the website of the Diocese of Manchester

It's wonderful to see Michael Voris at the St. Benedict Center, in New Hampshire. It augurs well for the Church.

The issue is theological according website of the  Diocese of Manchester,USA.

Theology supports the St. Benedict Center. Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Cushingism or Feeneyism and the conclusion will be different. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF) and Bishop Peter Libasci, Bishop of Manchester and his Curia, interpret Vatican Council II with Cushingism .While Brother Andre Marie MICM, Prior , at the St. Benedict Center(SBC) interprets Vatican Council II with Feeneyism so there is no rupture with Tradition for him.According to Brother Andre Marie's  letter on doctrine, in reply to the CDF, he has chosen the rational Feeneyite option. It can be read on the Catholicism.org website.For him there are no personally known cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance.

Cushingism and Feeneyism are important interpretative tools I use to explain myself on this issue.

Cushingism for me says hypothetical cases are objective examples of salvation outside the Church(we can see hypothetical cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance) while Feeneyism says they are just hypothetical and theoretical and so cannot be objective exceptions to the traditional interpretation of EENS( the baptism of desire is always theoretical for us humans).This is my rough, working definition. For details and articles on this subject check the right hand bar of this blog.

Cushingism is irrational and is responsible for what Pope Benedict referred to as the hermeneutic of rupture.But Pope Benedict was a Cushingite. His New Theology is Cushingism.

Cushingites are not only the liberals but also the traditionalists, especially those who have had their religious formation under Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.They include  sedevacantists like  Bishop Donald Sanborn.

So in the diocese of Manchester,USA like Bishop Peter Libasci, the sedevacantist community Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae(CMRI), under Bishop Mark Pivarunas also interprets Vatican Council II with Cushingism. So there is a rupture with EENS ( Feeneyite), the past exlusive ecclesiology, the ecumenism of return and of course the Syllabus of Errors.This is what Cushingism does.

So liberal Bishop Peter Libasci and traditionalist Bishop Mark Pivarunas in the Diocese of Manchester are Cushingites.

But in the Diocese of Manchester,Brother Andre Marie avoids the false premise, which creates Cushingism.He is back to the Old Theology ( Feeneyite) without adding any thing new or creating a new theology.

So the SBC are Feeneyite and the CMRI are Cushingites.

Both Cushingites and Feeneyites can affirm all magisterial documents. The difference lies in the use or omission of a premise.

Brother Andre  affirms all magisterial documents, including Vatican Council II and he does not have to reject EENS according to Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston.Since he is not a Cushingite on Vatican Council II.No rupture is creatd.

He also does not have to reject the Letter of the Holy Office 1949LOHO).Since the first part of LOHO affirms Feeneyite EENS, while there are no exceptions to the Feeneyite EENS mentioned in the second part of LOHO. The baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I) referred to in the second part of the Letter, are exceptions to EENS only with Cushingism. Brother Andre Marie interprets BOD, BOB and I.I as personally unknown cases according to his letter on doctrine.This Feeneyism. So BOD, BOB and I.I are not rejected. They are accepted as being hypothetical only. They cannot be anything else and they do not contradict Feeneyite EENS.

So he affirms Vatican Council II and EENS and his reasoning is rational.The same cannot be said for the CDF Secretaries and Bishop Libasci. They have to use the false premise. Otherwise they will not be able to cite any text from the Council.

LG 8, LG 14, LG 16,UR 3, GS 22 etc without the false premise are not exceptions to EENS.An invisible person cannot be a visible example of salvation outside the Church in 2019-

Brother Andre Marie has also called attention to Vatican Council II ( Ad Gentes 7) which says all need faith and baptism for salvation. Similarly Lumen Gentium 14 also supports Feeneyite EENS.Vatican Council II, with Feeneyism, is no more a rupture with EENS according to the missionaries and Magisterium of the 16th century.

For Pope Benedict EENS in 2016 was no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century since there was a rupture with Vatican Council II interpreted with Cushingism.

He like the CDF and Bishop Libasci wanted a rupture with Tradition. 

The CDF Secretaries in their correspondence, available on the Diocese of Manchester website, want Brother Andre Marie to interpret hypothetical cases in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (847-848), as being objective examples of salvation outside the Church, in the present times. This is irrational. But it is only with this ruse that there can be a rupture created with EENS.

This is heresy. Brother Andre Marie has refused to accept it.

So the CDF and Bishop Libasci are trying to twist his arm and charge that he is legally not a Catholic.

In other words he must claim that invisible cases of BOD,BOB and I.I are visible exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of EENS to be legal. The popes and saints of course were all wrong for the CDF.Legally they want a new Catholic Church.

Brother Andre Marie is not allowed to say that hypothetical cases of  LG 8 etc are not exceptions to the strict interpretation of EENS and so Cardinal Luiz Ladaria sj made an objective error at the Placquet Deo Press Conference last year.He told the correspondent from the Associated Press that the Church no more teaches that it has the superiority and exclusiveness in salvation. It was only with Cushingism that he could make that statement.
Heresy is the norm. This is the new theological understanding of the CDF and the Diocese of Manchester.It needs to be identified and corrected.

-Lionel Andrades

https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-heretic-or-loyal-son