Friday, August 15, 2014

Fr.Robert Barron and Michael Voris like most people interpret Vatican Council II with the right hand side values



 
 
Abridged transcript of the Vortex with comments.



Michael Voris:
He (Fr.Robert  Barron) is wrong when he talks about Hell and the hope that we can have that no one is in it.
Lionel.
Yes Fr.Barron contradicts the Bible, Vatican Council II and the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Cantate Dominio 1441).
 
Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! - Matthew 7.13-14
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. -Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.-Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441  http://catholicism.org/cantate-domino.html
 
Michael Voris:
For example, he says the following:
6:27 – we have to accept the possibility of Hell as possible because of human freedom,but are any human beings IN hell? We don’t know. We don’t know. The Church has never declared on that subject.”
Stop right there. That is deeply misleading.
The Church has never declared on that subject of people being in Hell. That’s correct.
 
Lionel:
Vatican Council II the Bible (Matt.7:13-14 ,John 3.5, Mark 16:16 etc) and the Magisterium (Council of Florence 1441) indicate that the majority of people are in Hell.Since they do not have 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).This is the teaching of the Church.The Council of Florence mentions that there is fire in Hell and tells us most people are going there.
Michael Voris:
Fr. Barron offers the fact that the Church never having declared on this as the reason why we don’t know.
Lionel:
Through Vatican Council II and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus we know that the majority of people are oriented to Hell.
Michael Voris:
It is utter nonsense to hold that all are saved or that we can reasonably hope that all are saved. Based on exactly WHAT reason?
 
Lionel:
This is an important point. Based on exactly WHAT reason?

 Based on  what new factor in the Catholic Church do theologians and Fr.Barron assume that all are not oriented to Hell as it was taught in the Catholic Church upto the late 1940s ?

What is the New Revelation for this change?
The answer is simple. It is the same error being made by Michael Voris and the traditionalists.
Michael Voris like Fr.Barron assumes that those non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) are visible and known to us in personal cases. This is the fundamental error. This is the new revelation which has changed theology in the Church.It is based on this irrationality of being able to physically see the dead now saved in Heaven, that it is asumed that there is salvation outside the Church. Michael Voris would say "No. There is no no salvation outside the Church" ( based on pre Vatican Church teachings) but would assume there is salvation outside the Church based on Vatican Council II.So he rejects Vatican Council II and holds on to the traditional teaching. Fr.Baron would say there is salvation outside the  Church based on Vatican Council II , with the dead are visible premise. He would cite Vatican Council II and Michael Voris will not correct him.Michael Voris also interprets Vatican Council II with the dead are visible premise.
 Fr.Barron would assume that those saved in invincible ignornance and a ray of the Truth (NA 2) are physically visible on earth in 2014.Michael Voris would agree. For him too Vatican Council II is a break with the past.
 
Both Fr.Barron and Michael Voris assume that LG 16 and NA 2 refer to seen in the flesh cases .The result is that Michael Voris rejects Vatican Council II here and Fr.Barron accepts it.
The bottom line is that they are both using an irratioinality( being able to see the dead who are in Heaven ) to reject, via Vatican Council II, the traditional teaching on salvation, Hell etc.
Michael Voris has to use Scripture to support his traditional view while Fr. Barron and theologians have to cite the Letter of the Holy Office and Vatican Council II  to support  new doctrines and heresy.

Fr.Barron and the liberal theologians are contradicting Scripture which Michael Voris quotes.They do this by quoting Vatican Council II. They assume that implicit,inviisible for us cases of non Catholics now deceased- are  explicit and seen in the flesh.Never has Michael Voris brought out this point and corrected his error of Fr.Barron and others on Vatican Council II.Since Michel Voris assumes that Vatican Council II is a break with the past.He is making the same error as Fr.Barron and does not know it.
Here is Fr.Barron and Michael Voris' error being supported by the Vatican's International Theological Commission. It was approved by the theologian Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J, a former professor at the Gregorian Pontifical College and now Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,Vatican.
 
10. Exclusivist ecclesiocentrism—the fruit of a specific theological system or of a mistaken understanding of the phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus—is no longer defended by Catholic theologians after the clear statements of Pius XII and Vatican Council II on the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church (cf, e.g., LG 16; GS 22).-Christianity and the World religions, International Theological Commission,Vatican.
 
(Lionel: The International Theological Commission (ITC) is implying here that the the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church are visible for us.So 'the possibility' contradicts Fr.Leonard Feeney.The ITC is using the right hand column to interpret Vatican Council II.)
 
LEFT HAND SIDE COLUMN or RIGHT HAND SIDE COLUMN

All salvation referred to in Vatican Council II i.e saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16), imperfect communion with the Church (UR 3),seeds of the Word (AG 11), good and holy things in other religions (NA 2) etc are either:



implicit for us               or explicit for us.

hypothetical                 or known in reality.

invisible                        or visible in the flesh.

dejure ( in principle)     or defacto ( in fact ).

subjective                     or objective

So one can choose from the left hand side or the right hand side column.

If the right hand side column is chosen then Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors and Tradition in general on other religions and Christian communities and churches. There are known exceptions in 2014 to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Cathlic Church. The dead- saved are visible.

If the left hand side column is chosen then Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus, nor Tradition on other religions and Christian communities and churches.

Fr.Robert Barron and Michael Voris like most people interpret Vatican Council II with the right hand side values.-Lionel Andrades