Thursday, August 2, 2012

FR.JOE JENKINS WANTS THE SSPX TO ACCEPT VATICAN COUNCIL II WITH THE VISIBLE DEAD THEORY: EVEN BISHOPS MULLER AND DI NOIA WANT THE SAME

Vatican Council II has to be interpreted in accord with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and without the visible dead theory then it could be accepted by the SSPX.It would be in agreement with the 'constant magisterium'.


You don’t have to be a Catholic to know that marriage is between a woman and man only similarly you don’t have to be a Catholic to know that the deceased are not visible to us in their human form, as when they were alive.


The Decree on Ecumenism, Vatican Council II does not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus -unless we assume that the dead can be seen. If one assumes like Fr.Joe Jenkins that the dead-saved are explicitly known on earth then there would be exceptions.


Similarly Nostra Aetate , Vatican Council II does not contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma- unless we assume that the ‘good and holy ‘ people in other religions, non Catholics who are saved, are known to us on earth and so they are exceptions to the dogma.


It’s this visible dead premise that Fr.Joe Jenkins wants the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX)  to accept.


This is irrational and non traditional and the Vatican Curia also expects the SSPX to accept this irrationality before they receive canonical status.


How can religious Superiors and the hundreds of bishops all over the world be silent about the claim of knowing the dead on earth, who are exceptions to the dogma on salvation and to Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II ?


The Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Sean O’Malley also will not answer two questions (1) like Fr. Jenkins. Since it expresses the truth of the media- created interpretation of Vatican Council Ii which Bishop Gerhard Muller and Archbishop Augustine Di Noia want the SSPX to approve.
-Lionel Andrades

1.
1) Do we personally know the dead saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc ?

2) Since we do not know any of these cases, there are no known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

__________________________________________

NOSTRA AETATE VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/nostra-aetate-vatican-council-ii-does.html#links


DECREE ON ECUMENISM SUPPORTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/decree-on-ecumenism-supports-dogma.html#links )

FR.JOE JENKINS STILL WILL NOT SAY THAT HE CANNOT SEE THE DEAD AND THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/frjoe-jenkins-still-will-not-say-that.html#links

NOSTRA AETATE VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

(Continued from the last post
DECREE ON ECUMENISM SUPPORTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

______________________________________________________



FATHER JOE:
All I wrote is that God saves whoever he pleases and that we cannot damn others.

Lionel:
We do not claim that anyone is damned who is still on earth.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades desperately wants to damn people. I suspect when he faces the particular judgment he will try to tell the Lord his business if non-Catholics should “sneak” into heaven. Of course, there is no absolute guarantee that he is going to paradise, either. Saying one sees (while really blind) and condemning others was a sin that earned the rebuke of Christ toward the scribes and Pharisees.

Lionel:
The Bible tells us that there are some sins which can prevent a person from seeing the Kingdom of God, fornication etc. It is not a condemnation of fornicators it is a warning in charity.

Similarly the Church teaches through the dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7) that non Catholics need to convert for salvation.

FATHER JOE:
His rebellion in the Church may illicit a similar response. Dismissing the real Vatican II and the post-conciliar popes, the universal catechism, Pope Pius XII, and Pope Pius IX, Lionel Andrades pontificates: “The de fide teaching is that all are oriented to Hell with Original Sin and mortal sins and with no access to the Sacraments. They need to enter the Church to benefit from Jesus’ sacrifice for them.” Such is his narrow interpretation of Dominus Iesus written by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Lionel:
This is the teaching in Dominus Iesus 20 and AG 7, Vatican Council II. This is the magisterium of the Church. This has been the teaching in the Catholic Church for centuries.

Father Joe:
The document cites Vatican II and states, “In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: ‘THE CATHOLIC CHURCH REJECTS NOTHING OF WHAT IS TRUE AND HOLY IN THESE RELIGIONS. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men.’ Continuing in this line of thought, the Church’s proclamation of Jesus Christ, ‘the way, the truth, and the life’ (Jn 14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue. Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the missio ad gentes, directed toward that ‘mystery of unity,’ from which ‘it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit.’ Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church’s evangelizing mission, requires an attitude of understanding and a relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience to the truth and with respect for freedom” [2]. Note that there are elements of truth and holiness.

Lionel:
Nostra Aetate does not contradict Ad Gentes 7

LUMEN GENTIUM 14 DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF

FATHER JOE:
If what Lionel Andrades said were true, there could be no holiness outside the confines of Catholicism. Later we read: “Certainly, it must be recognized that there are some elements in these texts which may be de facto instruments by which COUNTLESS PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES HAVE BEEN AND STILL ARE ABLE TODAY TO NOURISH AND MAINTAIN THEIR LIFE-RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Thus, as noted above, the Second Vatican Council, in considering the customs, precepts, and teachings of the other religions, teaches that ‘although differing in many ways from her own teaching, these nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men’” .

Lionel:
In these quotations from Nostra Aetate no where is it said that those who are good and holy and saved are known to us or that they are exceptions to the dogma. We accept the possibility in faith but in reality there are no known possibilities.There are no known possibilities of these cases being visible to us.

FATHER JOE:
If what Lionel Andrades said were true, non-Catholic or non-Christian elements could not preserve a “life-relationship” with God. He continues: “Nevertheless, God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, ‘DOES NOT FAIL TO MAKE HIMSELF PRESENT IN MANY WAYS, not only to individuals, BUT ALSO TO ENTIRE PEOPLES through their spiritual riches, OF WHICH THEIR RELIGIONS ARE THE MAIN AND ESSENTIAL EXPRESSION even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors.’ Therefore, the SACRED BOOKS OF OTHER RELIGIONS, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, RECEIVE FROM THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST THE ELEMENTS OF GOODNESS AND GRACE WHICH THEY CONTAIN” [8].

I am surprised that Lionel Andrades cites Dominus Iesus, given that it ultimately repudiates his entire position. I suspect the reason is that he reads snippets and not entire documents. It is true, as I have always believed and taught that Jesus is the one Mediator and bridge between heaven and earth.

Lionel:
 True Jesus is the one mediator and bridge is a Catholic  belief which is not in opposition to the dogmatic teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

FATHER JOE:
None are saved apart from Christ and his body, the Church. But the document goes on to say the following:

Furthermore, THE SALVIFIC ACTION OF JESUS CHRIST, with and through his Spirit, EXTENDS BEYOND THE VISIBLE BOUNDARIES OF THE CHURCH TO ALL HUMANITY. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states: “ALL THIS HOLDS TRUE NOT ONLY FOR CHRISTIANS BUT ALSO FOR ALL MEN OF GOOD WILL IN WHOSE HEARTS GRACE IS ACTIVE INVISIBLY. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery.” [12]

Lionel:
I agree Christ died for all, salvation is available for all, it is universal and Dominus 20 also says that all men to receive this salvation need to respond. They respond by entering the Church. So the Church is necessary for salvation.

FATHER JOE:
The single and universal economy of salvation in Christ is affirmed; but, not the proposition that non-Catholics are damned.

Lionel:
Yes the single and universal economy of salvation in Christ (Dominus Iesus n.4) is affirmed and it does not contradict Dominus Iesus 20 and the dogma on the necessity of the Church for salvation.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades seems either unwilling or too thick to accept this teaching. If I could I would spare him from further embarassing himself. At least the SSPX (on their issues) are honest enough to say they disagree with the Vatican.

Lionel:
They would disagree with the visible dead theories attached to Vatican Council II.

FATHER JOE:
As for the Feeneyites, of which he is a member, they are opposed by both the pre- and post-conciliar Church.

Lionel:
The Church has granted them canonical status in the USA.Fr.Leonard Feeney held the official teaching of the magisterium and is in accord with Vatican Council II and the SSPX communique (July 19, 2012). He was not asked by the Church to recant.

FATHER JOE .
Lionel Andrades is a man of many contradictions, especially as he misrepresents me, others and the Church. While insisting that all non-Catholics are oriented (destined) for hell, he writes later that while “there may not be a single case in 2012 of saved in invincible ignorance; we accept in principle that it is possible, known to God, that there could be people saved in invincible ignorance.” He admits the possibility for something that he said previously was a closed door.

Lionel:
Possibilities do not contradict actual cases.It does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction. Dejure a person can be saved in invincible ignorance. Defacto we do not know any such case.

FATHER JOE:
Maybe he just wants to be contrary for the sake of contrariness? He next says that this does not violate the principle of non-contradiction; however, when you say that something is NO might actually be YES, this is hard to stomach. Despite his false caricature of me, I merely insisted that one could not use the argument of not knowing who was saved to disqualify the notions of invincible ignorance and baptism by desire.

Lionel:
The issue is not ‘not knowing who was saved’ but are those who are saved visible to us on earth ?

FATHER JOE:
Except for the canonized saints, we can only hope for salvation in regard to ourselves and others.

Lionel:
Can we see the canonised saints on earth ? Are they visible to us ?

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades seemed to close the door to such hope, at least for the majority of people on the planet. The Church is not arguing for the salvation of individually known cases but rather in principle. Even canonized saints must be verified by an investigation and miracles. We were arguing the principle all along and yet now Lionel Andrades seems less sure of himself. Maybe he is hedging to protect himself from expulsion from the Church? I would contend that the principle is not in question while I still think he would judge it dubious or unlikely. How many times did he insist that there could be no exceptions? Now he is admitting the possibility of exceptions. Arguing with this man makes the head hurt.

Lionel:
There are no known exceptions, we cannot see any one dead who is now saved. So if we cannot see the dead it cannot be said that there are explicit exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades writes that I claim “to know who is saved” and that these cases are “visible” to me.

Lionel:
I repeat that Fr.Joe will not say that the dead are not visible to him. In other words Fr. Joe Jenkins will not say that he cannot see the dead –saved.So can he really see the dead saved in invincible ignorance etc ?

FATHER JOE:
Well, all I can say is that Mister Andrades is telling a lie of the worse sort. Indeed, his misrepresentation of me is probably the matter of serious sin. I would urge him to make a retraction, assent to the Pope, and go to confession for absolution. I do not like making such a public judgment, but his misrepresentation devalues my character and my fidelity to Mother Church. If and when he recants, I will remove these remarks from my blog.

He next writes that “Fr. Jenkins says that the Holy Office in 1949 condemned Fr. Leonard Feeney for rejecting the baptism of desire.” I actually did not write this sentence, I simply allowed the statement to speak for itself. Fr. Feeney was excommunicated in 1953 for “persistent disobedience to legitimate Church authority.” He supported colleagues in their denial of baptism by desire and baptism by blood.

Lionel:
He supported colleagues in their denial of baptism by desire and blood being exceptions to the dogma.

So we come back to the original question Fr. Joe Jenkins: Can you see anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire or blood ? Fr. Feeney could not.Since we cannot see the dead on earth we know that the baptism of desire etc are  irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades wants Pope Benedict XVI to parrot his own deficient argument that since we do not have a name of a person saved through “implicit desire” it does not exist and is an error. The Pope will never do this because the Pope will not teach heresy.

Lionel:
Since we do not have the name of a person saved with implicit desire we cannot assume that there are cases in 2012 or suggest that we know these cases on earth and so they are exceptions to the dogma.

FATHER JOE:
But I guess that makes Lionel Andrades a heretic, if one can figure out from his jumbled mind, what actually he is trying to say. I would urge readers to pray for the poor fanatic. Hopefully, he will not find himself outside or opposed to the Church that is necessary for salvation

Lionel:
 I have quoted the dogma and AG 7 which I affirm. To suppose that the defined dogma has defacto, known exceptions would be heresy.
-Lionel Andrades


FR.JOE JENKINS STILL WILL NOT SAY THAT HE CANNOT SEE THE DEAD AND THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/frjoe-jenkins-still-will-not-say-that.html#links )

DECREE ON ECUMENISM SUPPORTS THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

(Continued from the last post:
FR.JOE JENKINS STILL WILL NOT SAY THAT HE CANNOT SEE THE DEAD AND THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

FATHER JOE:
This does not mean that non-Catholics are necessarily damned. Rather, what it means is that no matter what a person might have been, if he should find himself in heaven, he is now most certainly a member of the Catholic Church in glory and included among the communion of the saints.

Lionel:
They are not damned. If they convert they can go to Heaven. If they do not they are on the way to Hell.

FATHER JOE:
He also bad mouths a retired priest from Sydney, Fr. John George. I read that he had some past problems in his Archdiocese, but I really know next to nothing about him. It looks like the pertinent areas on his message board have been deleted.

Lionel:
Fr.John George is a fine priest and I like him. We have been corresponding for quite some time on his board. He has his style of defending the Catholic Church and is generally orthodox in his view. I do not know of any problems he may have had in his Archdiocese and I have not mentioned  any.


However just like  Fr.Jenkins he will not accept that we do not know the dead, we cannot see them personally on earth, face to face. There are no dead- alive. He does not want to accept the literal interpretation of the dogma even though he is conservative on other issues.

FATHER JOE:
Unable to deal with coherent arguments, Lionel Andrades attacks the person. It is a whacky crusade.

Lionel:
I am careful to restrict my self to doctrine and theology.

FATHER JOE:
He says that documents which obviously say one thing are saying something else. Indeed, he would make the Decree on Ecumenism at Vatican II teach they very opposite from what it actually teaches. Such reflects a silliness that may cross over into a blind fanaticism or a simple sickness of mind. I am not sure which, maybe both? He says that I will not acknowledge the “theological implications” of our not being able to see the blessed of heaven or I suppose, conversely, the damned of hell.

Lionel:
You are unable to admit that you cannot see your dead relatives or parishioners.

FATHER JOE:
However, the deposit of faith is based not upon what we can see but what is passed down to us and taught by the Magisterium.


Lionel:
True and the texts of magisterial documents do not say that we can see the dead who are exceptions to AG 7 and the dogma outside the church no salvation.

FATHER JOE:
That is the whole business about believing, we live by faith, not by sight.

Lionel:
I know I cannot see my deceased relatives. They are not in sight.

FATHER JOE:
The Decree on Ecumenism at Vatican II states:
[3] Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. THE CHILDREN WHO ARE BORN INTO THESE COMMUNITIES AND WHO GROW UP BELIEVING IN CHRIST CANNOT BE ACCUSED OF THE SIN INVOLVED IN THE SEPARATION, AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EMBRACES UPON THEM AS BROTHERS, with respect and affection. FOR MEN WHO BELIEVE IN CHRIST AND HAVE BEEN TRULY BAPTIZED ARE IN COMMUNION WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH EVEN THOUGH THIS COMMUNION IS IMPERFECT.

Lionel:
Yes they can be saved . We accept this in principle, in faith.


The text above does not claim that these cases are explicitly known to us. Neither does the text state that these cases are exceptions to the dogma.


One has to make these false assumptions.The Vatican Council II text does not say it.

FATHER JOE:
The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. BUT EVEN IN SPITE OF THEM IT REMAINS TRUE THAT ALL WHO HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED BY FAITH IN BAPTISM ARE MEMBERS OF CHRIST’S BODY, AND HAVE A RIGHT TO BE CALLED CHRISTIAN, AND SO ARE CORRECTLY ACCEPTED AS BROTHERS BY THE CHILDREN OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Lionel:
Yes they are accepted as brothers who are justified by faith, Catholic Faith. (even the Jehovah Witnesses have faith in Jesus).They who have converted are members of Christ's Body and they can be saved.

Note again this passage does not state that these persons are known to us or that they are exceptions to the dogma.

Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith for salvation. This means Catholic faith.

FATHER JOE:
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; THE LIFE OF GRACE’ FAITH, HOPE AND CHARITY, WITH THE OTHER INTERIOR GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

Lionel:
True. Still there is no conflice with the dogma or AG 7.

FATHER JOE:
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can TRULY ENGENDER A LIFE OF GRACE in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

Lionel:
True they would lead these Christians to the community of salvation which is the Catholic Church. (See also Notifiocation on Fr.Jacques Dupuis S.J by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith 2001).


FATHER JOE:
IT FOLLOWS THAT THE SEPARATED CHURCHES AND COMMUNITIES AS SUCH, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, HAVE BEEN BY NO MEANS DEPRIVED OF SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE IN THE MYSTERY OF SALVATION. FOR THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HAS NOT REFRAINED FROM USING THEM AS MEANS OF SALVATION which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Lionel.
A Protestant can be saved in his community as a possibility known only to God. The ordinary means of salvation is the Catholic Church. It is Catholic Faith which includes the baptism of water. Protestants have the baptism of water but not Catholic faith.


No contradiction to the dogma or AG 7.The passage above is not saying that Christian communities are the ordinary means of salvation.

FATHER JOE:
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

Lionel:
For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.


This is the message of the dogma and AG 7.

FATHER JOE:
We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God’s gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Lionel:
We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.

FATHER JOE:
Notice that the Council fathers spoke about our separated brethren as growing in grace. Actual grace is not possible unless one has first acquired sanctifying grace. The fact that they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church is not held against them. Turning to the subject of non-Christians, one finds a respectful assessment from the Church in the Vatican II document, Nostra Aetate. I shudder to think what Lionel Andrades would try to do with this, given his Feeneyite affiliation.

Lionel:
Nostra Aetate mentions those who are good and holy in other religions but does say that their religion is a means of salvation or that it is the ordinary means of salvation. If it did it would contradict AG 7, Vatican Council II. So Nostra Aetate does not contradict the dogma.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades curses the whole world and writes that “all non-Catholics are oriented to Hell and there are no known exceptions.”

Lionel:
No curses for anyone. Man was born good in the Garden of Eden. It is due to Adam's Fall that we suffer. We carry Original Sin which needs to be wiped out with the baptism of water.

FATHER JOE
But this is hardly the position of Vatican II and the living Church; quite the contrary, we emphasize the hope of salvation. While I give direct quotes from his remarks, Lionel Andrades misrepresents me, just as he does Church teachings and documents.

Lionel:
The Decree on Ecumenism mentions the need for Christians communities to come to the true Chruch according to the quotes above.


Then we still have Ad Gentes 7 before us.

FATHER JOE:
He writes that I wrongly give room to ignorance. However, such is only an ingredient in possible salvation and not the most essential. He attributes an expression to me that I find rather foreign and unfamiliar: “Those who do not know about Jesus and the Church are oriented to Heaven.” I never said or wrote that such people are necessarily “oriented” toward heaven.

Lionel:
Lumen Gentium 14 mentions it.


-Lionel Andrades

PLENARY INDULGENCE TODAY !

http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2012/07/31/obtain-plenary-indulgence-tomorrow-thursday/

Today morning I visited a chapel at the Franciscan Conventual church in Rome and prayed the Apostles Creed, the Our Father and Hail Mary and for the pope's intentions.
Today evening I will  attend Mass at the sisters chapel and I have to go for Confession.-Lionel

 

 The Church Santi Apostoli, Rome (Church of the Twelve Holy Apostles)

The Church of the Twelve Holy Apostles (Italian: Santi XII Apostoli, Latin: SS. XII Apostolorum) is a 6th century Roman Catholic parish and titular church and minor basilica in Rome, Italy, dedicated originally to St. James and St. Philip and later to all Apostles. Today, the basilica is under the care of the Conventual Franciscans, whose headquarters in Rome is in the adjacent building.