Sunday, June 3, 2012

VESTED IN PURPLE AT THE BASILICA OF ST.MARY MAJORS AND TEACHING...


I spoke to a religious vested in purple at the Basilica of St.Mary Majors, Rome a few weeks back. It was early morning there were a few people there.He was praying the rosary and walking along a side aisle for quite sometime.

I told him I believe that all Muslims and other non Catholics are oriented to Hell and there are no known exceptions .I believe this is the teaching of the Church.I cited Ad Gentes 7 and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

I mentioned that all non Catholic have Original Sin and they do not have Catholic Faith and the baptism of water which is the ordinary means of salvation.

I asked him why do not cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns teach that we can affirm AG 7 and that LG 16 is not in contradiction ? They could say all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7) for salvation (to avoid Hell). We do not know any non Catholic in 2012 saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience. Neither do we know any such case in the previous years.

They could teach, he included, that there is exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church and there could be the possibility of someone saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and this would be known only to God.

In other words defacto, visibly, formally every one needs to be a defacto, (explicit) member of the Catholic Church and dejure,in principle a non Catholic could be saved in invincible ignorance etc and it would be unknown to us in personal cases.

The religious agreed that Lumen Gentium 16 does not contradict AG 7 since we do not know any one saved in the present time.

He said it was true that everyone needed the baptism of water for salvation and there were no known exceptions.

The after affirming these teachings of the Catholic Church he seemed to contradict it all.

He said God is merciful and so we cannot say that all Muslims and other non Catholics are oriented to Hell.

Even though Muslims have Original Sin on their soul not wiped out with the baptism of water, they can be saved. If they could be saved in general or in particular cases it was not clear.

Then he indicated that even though they have Original Sin there were among them those who are good and who lead a good life. So they can be saved.

People know what is right and wrong deep within the heart he mentioned,and so non Catholics have the truth. He suggested that they can be saved in general or particular, it was not specified.

The he said that extra ecclesiam nulla salus was not a defined dogma but just an aphorism a saying.

Salvation is open to all he said, all can be saved.He suggested that God is merciful implying all or most non Catholics will be saved. At the same time, he agreed, that salvation is open only to all who respond.

He was saying yes, every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and yes some may not need it for salvation in the present time.

It would make sense if he said yes, in principle every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and there could be exceptions.While defacto ( in reality, in fact) every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and there are no known exceptions.
-Lionel Andrades

LUMEN GENTIUM 14 DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF



 
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.

Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.-Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II
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Here Lumen Gentium 14  like Ad Gentes 7 and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says all need to enter the Church.This passage which we can call A, is not in contradiction with other passages in Lumen Gentium 14.

Example A.
Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.
Example B.
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
Those who know and do not enter will not be saved. They are oriented to Hell.These cases will be known only to God and so B does not contradict A.Every one still needs to enter the Church.

In principle we accept that ‘Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.’ Deafcto we know everyone on earth needs to enter the Church for salvation (A).

Passage C

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.
Those who possess the Spirit of Christ and accept her entire system can be saved and we accept this teaching in principle. It still means that all need to enter the Church for salvation (A). C is not in conflict with A.

Passage D


Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
Catechunmens with an implicit desire, an intention can be saved and it is God alone who knows who these cases are. We do not know a single such case in 2012 on earth.We accept in principle that a person can be saved in this category. Defacto, in reality every one needs to enter the Church and there are no known exceptions (A). So D is not in conflict with A.
-Lionel Andrades
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Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.- Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II.


Nostra Aetate does not contradict Ad Gentes 7
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/nostra-aetate-does-not-contradict-ad.html#links

Pope Benedict on June 11 will say everyone needs the baptism of water and he will also say everyone does not need the baptism of water

The pope has to maintain the confusion because of Cardinal Richard Cushing's error.

Similarly on June 7 is the  Most Holy Body and Blood of Christ  procession in Rome. The Holy Father could  be saying everyone needs the Eucharist for salvation but there are some persons on earth in the present time, known to us, who do not need the Eucharist.

It would be meaningful if he said in principle every one needs the Eucharist, everyone  needs the baptism of water for salvation and there could be exceptions. While defacto, in fact, explicitly, in reality, everyone needs the Eucharist and the baptism of water for salvation and there are no known exceptions.
(The issue of precept and means is an in principle arguement.Finally only God wil judge who are the exceptions, who did not have the means).
For us humans on earth every one needs the Eucharist for salvation and there are no known exceptions.

If Pope Benedict does not speak out this error on the need for baptism , at the conference organised by the Rome Vicariate, June 11-13 there will be protests such as:
“ Vatican Council II says non Catholics can be saved in invincible ignorance etc!!!” Even the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) would be surprised at the pope.The pope has to maintain the confusion because of Cardinal Richard Cushing's error. The former Archbishop of Boston along with the Jesuits in the 1940’s were sure there were known exceptions to the dogma on salvation as interpreted over the centuries by the popes and saints.

Discerning Catholics know everyone needs the baptism of water (given to adults with Catholic Faith) and there are no known exceptions.

The Conference is being organised by the Rome Vicariate which assumes those saved in invincible ignorance are known to us so every one does not need to enter the Church for salvation excepti for those who know know about Jesus and the Church.

This was the line inserted in Lumen Gentium 14,(1) which is harmless and true in itself but can cause confusion.(2) i.e the reference to those who 'know.'

We can all agree that only Jesus can judge who knows and who is in invincible ignorance.So in a sense it is irrelevant to us.It is important to note that Lumen Gentium 14 like Ad Gentes 7 tells us all need to enter the Church.

Those who ‘know’ or do not, is irrelevant to the ancient teaching on extra  ecclesiam nulla salus. Vatican Council  (LG 14;AG 7) says all need to convert into the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation(to avoid Hell).There is salvation in only Jesus and within the Catholic Church.If there are those saved in invincible ignorance (and we do not know any case in 2012) it will be known only to God.It is not an exception to all needing to convert into the Church.

On the popes talk on June 11 no clarifications will be sought by the Institute of the Good Shepherd, FSSPS and other traditional communities since like the Novus  Ordo priests, they assume that there are explicitly known exceptions to AG ,LG 14 and the dogma as it was interpreted according to Tradition.-Lionel Andrades
1.
Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.-Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.

2.
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
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ROME VICARIATE HIT BY THE RICHARD CUSHING ERROR : Centro Della pastorale sanitaria says the baptism of water is not defacto needed for the salvation of all on earth

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/12/rome-vicariate-hit-by-richard-cushing.html#links

VICARIATE OFFICES FOR YOUTH AND THE SICK ARE TEACHING ERRORS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/12/vicariate-offices-for-youth-and-sick.html#links

ROME VICARIATE’S GESU AL CENTRO USES CHARISMATIC RENEWAL -MEDUGORJE EVANGELIZATION AND CONTRADICTS VATICAN COUNCIL II
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/rome-vicariates-gesu-al-centro-uses.html#links