Thursday, September 11, 2014

Two Catholic Conferences this week end - how would they interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church ?

Call to Holiness Conference @ Best Western Sterling Heights | Sterling Heights | Michigan | United States
Two Catholic Conferences are to be held this week in the USA.Their speakers  will interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 with the same irrational premise they use, in the interpretation of Vatican Council II, Redemptoris Missio, Dominus Iesus etc.
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
 sm-room-crIt is the same Catechism of the Catholic Church but we have different interpretations of CCC 846. For me CCC 847 and 848 are not exceptions to CCC 846 (and CCC 845). For the members of the two Conferences they are exceptions to Tradition. 
Here CCC 846 affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door-CCC 846
 
The above passage is Feeneyite. CCC 846 is Feeneyite here.
 
Speakers at the two conferences will interpret the following passage from CCC 846 as being opposed to the one above.They will use the Cushingite approach that of known exceptions.
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.-CCC 846.
It will be wrongly assumed that those who 'know' or those who are in 'invincible ignorant' are visible to us in 2014.This is the false premise. Then it will be concluded that these visible cases, personally known on earth, are explicit exceptions to the passage above. It will be inferred that they are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
So first it will be judged and inferred that we know on earth those 'who know' but did not enter the Church and those who are in invincible ignorant. Then it will be inferred that these cases who are really known only to God, are exceptions to the necessity of faith and Baptism for all in 2014.
Catholic Identity Conference 2014 flyer 
The passage above  does not say that they are visible to us or that here is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.However this will be inferred even though it is not in the text.
The false premise will be used by the Conference members and the result is a non traditional conclusion.
So when it is said that every one needs to be a formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation by the speakers at the Catholic Identity Conference it will be denied by the speakers at the Call to Holiness Conference.  The Call to Holiness speakers will quote CCC 846 to reject Feeneyism. They will say that all salvation comes from Jesus and the Church i.e those who are saved with the baptism of water and those saved without the baptism of water ( baptism of desire, invincible ignorance etc) are saved through Jesus and the Chruch.But where are the cases saved without the baptism of water in 2014? There are none! Those saved with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water are hypothetical cases. I could also say , hypothtically that there can be a case of a person saved with the baptism of desire followed by the baptism of water.Either way these hypothetical cases are not exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Church for salvation.Since they do not exist in our reality.They are 'zero cases' for us. All still need faith and Baptism in 2014 to avoid Hell.
 messe_mit_wandlungskerze_beuron
Similarly members of both Conferences will state that 'God is not limited to the Sacraments'(CCC 1257).In other words they know of some person in 2014 who has been saved without  the baptism of water in the Catholic Church! The progressivists and traditionalists make this error.
This is the irrationality used in the interpretation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.It is with this irrationality that the Call to Holiness speakers will reject the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla  salus and cite Vatican Council II ( with the premise) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (846,1257) also interpreted with the false premise.
The Catholic Identity Conference speakers will call attention to Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church being a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They will reject these Church documents interpreted with the false premise. But they are not aware of the false premise.
So the fault is not with Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic in a such much as they can be interpreted without the false premise and the conclusion is traditional.
-Lionel Andrades
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Two Catholic Conferences this week end : how would they interpret Dominus Iesus ?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/two-catholic-conferences-this-week-end.html



 
Two Catholic Conferences this week end: how would they interpret Redemptoris Missio?  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/two-catholic-conferences-this-week-end_11.html
 


Interpreting Vatican Council II according to Tradition

 
 
 
WE DON'T KNOW ANY MUSLIM SAVED FOLLOWING HIS GOOD CONSCIENCE SO IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH NO SALVATION

 

SSPX get smart!

After the next Muller-Fellay meeting the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) will be penalised .Unless of course they are smart and say they accept Vatican Council II without the false premise.
They must simply make an announcement. Announce that they do not know any one in 2014 saved with ' a ray of the Truth'(NA 2), imperfect communion with the Church (UR 3), invincible ignorance(LG 16), elements of sanctification and truth'(LG 8),or subsistit it(LG 8).So there are no known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus mentioned in Vatican Council II.
 
When Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus, it does not contradict  traditional doctrines and theology on other religions and Christian communities.
Then they could  ask Cardinal Gerhard Muller if he is willing to accept this interpretation of Vatican Council II, which they consider rational.
He will not!
The Jewish Left will not permit it.
Then, at least, he cannot say that the SSPX must accept Vatican Council II for full canonical status.-Lionel Andrades

Cardinal Jean-Louis Pierre Tauran must accept Vatican Council II and set an example for the Catholic religious communities and SSPX

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/cardinal-jean-louis-pierre-tauran-must.html#links

CARDINAL KOCH MUST BE ASKED TO ACCEPT VATICAN COUNCIL II http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/cardinal-koch-must-be-asked-to-accept.html

Interpreting Vatican Council II according to Tradition
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/06/interpreting-vatican-council-ii.html#links




Vatican Council II says outside the Church there is no salvation and is in agreement with the Syllabus of Errors, Mystici Corporis,Quanto Conficiamus etc.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/08/sspx-can-accept-vatican-council-ii-in.html
ROME HAS TO CONVERT WHEN THE SSPX ANNOUNCES RICHARD CUSHING WAS IN HERESY
 
 
NO MATTER HOW YOU INTERPRET DIGNITATIS HUMANAE IF VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS RELIGIOUS LIBERTY IS TRADITIONAL

FR.NICHOLAS PFLUGER PLEASE ANNOUNCE THAT THE RICHARD CUSHING HERESY IS UNACCEPTABLE

SSPX - ARCHBISHOP RICHARD CUSHING WAS IN HERESY AND NOT FR.LEONARD FEENEY

THE BOSTON HERESY OF THE ARCHBISHOP INFLUENCED VATICAN COUNCIL II AND THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
 
 
 
 

Two Catholic Conferences this week end: how would they interpret Redemptoris Missio?

Members of both conferences will use the irrational premise in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and also  Redemptoris Missio. The result is that at one conference they will accept Vatican Council II as a break with the past and at the other Conference they will reject Vatican Council II as a break with the infallible teaching.Both  Conferences will be unaware that they are using an irrational premise in the interpretation of Vatican Council II, Dominus Iesus, Redemptois Missio etc.
 
Redemptois Missio
Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All
10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church.
Lionel:
Salvation is open to all, in potential.
 
 Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.
Lionel:
It is God who decides to whom it has been made available and who is in invincible ignorance. All have an obligation to convert.(John 3:6,Mk.16:16)
Those who are saved or will be saved in invincible ignorance etc are not known to us in 2014.So it must not be inferred that these cases are exceptions to all needing to formally convert into the Church for salvation.
 
 But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church.
Lionel:
These people are not known to us. We cannot judge who they are and who among them will be saved or not.
 
 The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.
Lionel:
Theoretically, hypothethically, yes. De facto, in real life, in 2014 we do not know any such case. So it must not be inferred that these cases are explcit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
 This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.-Redemptoris Missio
Lionel:
In potential, as a possibility, yes.However to receive salvation all need to respond and enter the Catholic Church, with 'faith and baptism ( Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).
 
Redemptoris Missio
28. The Spirit manifests himself in a special way in the Church and in her members. Nevertheless, his presence and activity are universal, limited neither by space nor time.35 The Second Vatican Council recalls that the Spirit is at work in the heart of every person, through the "seeds of the Word," to be found in human initiatives-including religious ones-and in mankind's efforts to attain truth, goodness and God himself.
Lionel:
We must be careful here.We must not infer that those saved with the 'seeds of the Word' are visible and known to us. They are unknown to us in 2014.They are invisible cases. So they cannot be exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Church , with faith and baptism, for salvation.
 
The Call to Holiness Conference members will assume that those saved with the 'seeds of the Word(AG 11) are visible to us in real life. This will be the false premise.
Then they will conclude that these 'visible in the flesh' cases are explicit exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Catholic Church in the present times.
So they conclude that Vatican Council II is a break with the past dogma.They will accept this.
At the Catholic Identity Conference they will use the same reasoning. They will reject Vatican Council II ( with the premise) and affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
They do not know that there is a third option. If they do not use the false premise they can accept Vatican Council II  and also extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
They can accept a baptism of desire which is a hypothethical probability alongwith the Feeneyite interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
-Lionel Andrades


CTH Single Sheet1-b

Catholic Identity Conference 2014 flyer

Two Catholic Conferences this week end : how would they interpret Dominus Iesus ?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/two-catholic-conferences-this-week-end.html

 

April 23-Sept.11,2014 - still no clarification from the SSPX


Bishop Bernard Fellay the Superior General of the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) in his last Letter to Friends and Benefactors no. 82 says 'The same declaration (LG. 8) also recognizes the presence of “salvific elements” in non-Catholic Christian communities' and the SSPX bishop concludes that 'Such statements are irreconcilable with the dogma “No salvation outside of the Church,” which was reaffirmed by a Letter of the Holy Office on August 8, 1949.'

1. We do not know any one in 2014 who is saved outside the Church, i.e without Catholic Faith and baptism.So how is LG 8 an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known to the Church Councils, the popes and saints'?

 Why is LG 8 an explicit exception to all needing the baptism of water in the Catholic Church ?

2.Secondly how can the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 'reaffirm' the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? There was no magisterial document before 1949, which inferred that the baptism of desire was visible for us.Also no pre- 1949 Church document states that these cases of the baptism of desire etc are explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 infers that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma.In other words ir is relevant.How can it be relevant if we do not know any such case in real life.?  -Lionel Andrades

___________________________________________________

 

April 23-August 26,2014 - still no clarification from the SSPX

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/message-incomplete-work-in-progress.html#links
 
 
August 24, 2014

April 13-August 24,2014 and still no correction or clarification from Bishop Bernard Fellay

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/april-13-august-242014-and-still-no.html#links

Two Catholic Conferences this week end : how would they interpret Dominus Iesus ?

How  would  the two Catholic Conferences to be held in
 the USA this week end  interpret Pope John Paul II's
Dominus Iesus ? With or without the  irrational premise?.
 With the irrational premise of couse. They both will make
 the same mistake and not know about it.

CTH Single Sheet1-b

DECLARATION
"DOMINUS IESUS":ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC
UNIVERSALITY OF

JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

 

Catholic Identity Conference 2014 flyer
 
 
INTRODUCTION

A 1. The Lord Jesus, before ascending into heaven, commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world and to baptize all nations: "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:15-16); "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the world" (Mt 28:18-20; cf. Lk 24:46-48; Jn 17:18,20,21; Acts 1:8).
The Church's universal mission is born from the command of Jesus Christ and is fulfilled in the course of the centuries in the proclamation of the mystery of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the mystery of the incarnation of the Son, as saving event for all humanity. The fundamental contents of the profession of the Christian faith are expressed thus: "I believe in one God, the Father, Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come".1
2. In the course of the centuries, the Church has proclaimed and witnessed with fidelity to the Gospel of Jesus. At the close of the second millennium, however, this mission is still far from complete.2 For that reason, Saint Paul's words are now more relevant than ever: "Preaching the Gospel is not a reason for me to boast; it is a necessity laid on me: woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel!" (1 Cor 9:16). This explains the Magisterium's particular attention to giving reasons for and supporting the evangelizing mission of the Church, above all in connection with the religious traditions of the world.3
 
B In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: "The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men".4
(B: Those non Catholics who are saved with ' a ray of that truth which enlightens all men' are known to us in 2014. So they are exceptions to the infallible teaching outside the Church there is no salvation. B contradicts A.)
 
Members of both the Conferences will use
this irrational interpretation of Dominus
Iesus.
 
There is a third alternative. It is also a rational
interpretation.
 
C.In considering the values which these religions witness to and offer humanity, with an open and positive approach, the Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions states: "The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men".4

(C: Those non Catholics who are saved with ' a ray
 of that truth which enlightens all men' are not known to
 us in 2014.These are hypothehtical probabilities. If they
 exist they would be known only to God. Since they are
not explcit for us they are not exceptions in 2014 to
 the infallible teaching outside the Church there is no
 salvation.C does not contradict A.
 
Since there is nothing in Vatican
Council II to contradict the traditional
 interpretation of the dogma extra
ecclesiam nulla salus, and since
the Council is Feeneyite, Vatican
Council II does not contradict
the traditional teachings on other
religions and Christian communities.
 
When members of the two conferences
 choose C in the interpretation of
 Dominus Iesus, Vatican Council
 II etc.,these magisterial documents
 do not contradict themself and
 neither do they contradict Tradition.
Other passages in Dominus
 Iesus can be interpreted in this
 way, also Redemptoris Missio etc.
-Lionel Andrades




http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/two-conferences-and-irrational-premise.html#links