On the website of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) thre is the announcement Ocassional Papers Summer 2012 Leadership and the Evolution of Consciousness.An Interview with Sr.Ilia Delio, OSF, senior research fellow at Woodstock Theological Center, Georgetown University.
The Franciscan Sister draws on gnostic and Vedic ideas which is now part of New Age. She supports
Teilhard di Chardin (according to a Youtube video) and she herself
rejects exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church similar to the
LCWR which patronises her, a pharmacologist and not a physicist or
cosmologist.
Here is a report on the Internet. Comments are added:
Savior: Ilia Delio reimagines Christ
Sunday, March 20, 2011
By Online Editor
A U.S. Catholic interview
While some see modern science as a challenge to faith, Franciscan Sister
Ilia Delio sees it as an opportunity to think in new ways about God,
creation, and the incarnation.
The age of the universe alone requires us to talk about creation and
Christ in new language. “The whole cosmos, from the big bang on, is that
Word of God being spoken in the vast spaces of the universe.”
That same Word is made flesh in Jesus Christ, says Delio, a former
professor of spirituality and now a research fellow at Georgetown’s
Woodstock Theological Center. But he’s more than the man who walked from
Galilee to Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. “Christ is probably the most
inclusive term we could use to talk about God’s presence,” she says.
“Christ is the one who draws together, who unifies the new creation,”
she says.
That unity is simply the love of God that binds all things together, she
says, and that’s where we come in. “While the fullness of God’s love is
revealed in Jesus, what happened to Jesus must happen to us as well.”
Lionel: Love is important.'what happened to Jesus must happen to us as well'seem like gnosticism and Teilhard di Chardin.
Teilhard
di Chardin based his 'scientific theory' on the discovery of the
'missing link' in evolution which later was proved a fraud.
There is no scientific basis for Teilhard di Chardin's writing about all of us evolving into Christs'.
Delio sees the Christian vocation as one of recognizing relationships,
both to creation and to other human beings. For followers of Jesus, that
means building bridges, especially across religious traditions. “Heaven
takes place on earth when we begin to live in God’s love in a new way,”
she says. “It can sound cosmic and abstract and yet, it’s the most
concrete thing we can do.”
You write about the connection between science and theology. What does science have to do with our faith in Jesus?
Every age must discover Christ anew. When we make Christ an academic
study or just a doctrinal formula, he loses his vitality and meaning for
our everyday lives.
This especially matters now because the world has changed radically
since Christians first started reflecting on who Christ is. Science has
opened up for us the cosmos in a new way. Now we know that the cosmos is
much older than we could have ever imagined—13.7 billion years old. We
can’t get our minds around what even a billion years is like.
Lionel:
This is an opinion i.e 13.7 billion years old. The opinion can be
changed in the future. There are other scientists who state that the
universe is much younger, not even a hundred thousand years old.
Science also reveals that the cosmos is dynamic. So if God is the
creator of this cosmos, we’re talking about a very dynamic God, not a
static, boring God. This is a God who is engaged and relational, a God
of dynamic love.
Lionel:
God is the Creator of the Universe and there is no ‘if’ about it.If the
cosmos created by God is dynamic it does not mean God is the same.
Dynamic, static and boring are human concepts.
These discoveries challenge us to rethink the meaning of Jesus Christ.
Our traditional christology—the formal study of Jesus Christ—was
formulated in the fourth and fifth centuries: Jesus Christ is true God
and true man, fully divine and fully human without change, without
confusion, without separation, without division, two natures in one
person. The language is a mixture of the New Testament, Greek
metaphysics, and Plato and Aristotle, which reflects an understanding of
the universe as fixed and unchanging, not dynamic and evolving.
Lionel:
The universe is fixed and changing. Teilhard di Chardin was proven
wrong scientifically in his concept of an evolutionary universe but the
Sister used his theory and the LCWR likes it too.
Does that mean we have to start all over?
We have a tradition to work from. If you look at the first six centuries
of Christianity, the belief that the Word is made flesh was really tied
with creation. In the New Testament, for example, Colossians and
Ephesians point to Christ as the firstborn of creation. And the first
thing that Christ is about is God’s love.
If you go back to the early Christian thinkers, to people such as Origen
of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lyons, or Maximus the Confessor, they write
about the “primacy of Christ,” how Christ is first in God’s intention to
love.
Lionel:
So that (primacy of Christ) has not changed even now. There is no new
scientific discovery in consciousness to suggest anything different.
Franciscans later focused on Christ as God’s Word incarnate. God
expresses God’s self in every aspect of created reality. So every
person, every tree, every leaf, everything is a little word of the Word
of God.
In that tradition we can talk of the whole cosmos, from the big bang on,
as that Word of God being spoken in the vast spaces of the universe.
And that’s not metaphor. Nothing would come to be except as an
expression of God’s love.
Lionel: So how does this negate the concept of Hell, demons, sin, suffering and exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church ?
What we’re saying is that from all eternity the whole universe is made
for Christ. The whole thing is about love, from 14 billion years ago, to
the emergence of the human person, to the incarnation in Jesus Christ.
It’s love being stressed all along, divine love all through cosmic
history.
Lionel: The whole
universe is made for Christ and those who disobey go to Hell. The Bible
tells us that the fallen angels are in Hell.They were also in the
universe or 'a part of the cosmos'.
It bursts forth in the person of Jesus like a new big bang. Big Bang One
is the cosmos; Big Bang Two is God exploding now in human history and
giving an explicit direction to the whole course of evolution in Jesus
Christ.
Lionel:
In the beginning was the Word (John), in the beginning was not the
cosmos.We cannot separate Jesus from the Word .We cannot separate Jesus
from the Catholic Church which is the presence of the Kingdom of God on
earth.
How is Christian life different in this approach to Christ?
A “cosmic christology,” a more expansive understanding of Christ, is
about relationship: God in relationship to us and us in relationship to
God incarnate. To be related to the incarnation is to be related to one
another and to all of creation. It means seeing the incarnation as the
real presence of God in real time, in concrete material reality.
Lionel:
There is no scientific basis for a cosmic christology. Regarding
relationships that existed before and even after the Incarnation.
We tend to focus on the historical life of Jesus: He was a good man. He
lived in Nazareth. He went about preaching the gospel, doing good
things, healing the sick and raising the dead. We have this idea that if
we dutifully follow the pattern of life Jesus laid down for us, we’re
guaranteed salvation.
Lionel:
No - salvation is ecclesiocentric, it is there in only the Catholic
Church. To just believe in Jesus for salvation is a Protestant concept
being used by this Catholic nun.
But to say Jesus is the Christ means that he is the long-awaited
fullness of God’s presence. What is the point of God taking on our
humanity if it doesn’t have meaning for us in our own humanity?
Lionel:
The Incarnation has meaning for us in our own humanity, only for
Catholics who respond to the Gospel as taught by the Church. It is
meaningful for eternal salvation.
The point is that just as Jesus is the Christ, we, too, are part of the
Christ mystery, the Word-made-flesh, God’s love incarnate, which has
evolved through 14 billion years.
Lionel:
Jesus was on earth as a human some 2000 years back. There is not much
evolutionary change, nothing spectacular or dramatic during this time.
As theologian Raimon Panikkar said, Jesus is the Christ, but Christ is
more than Jesus alone. Christ encompasses the whole cosmos.
Lionel: Panikkar did not accept exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.
Isn’t that pantheism?
Pantheism is the belief that God is all things and all things are God.
The approach to Christ I am describing has been called panentheism: God
is in all things, and all things are in God, but God is more than all
things. God is greater than the sum of everything because God is
incomprehensible. You can’t conflate the uncreated and the created.
Lionel: I had a personal copy of Pannikars book in which he coins the word panentheism for a Vedic concept.
Christ is the way we are called to live in this mystery of God’s love. As we live in it, Christ is born.
So we are all supposed to be Christ?
You are baptized, right? All who are baptized into Christ have put on
Christ, Paul says in Galatians. By our baptism we are changed. We have
put on Christ. We are now Christ. In other words Christ is now our life.
We are to go out and make Christ alive in the universe.
Lionel:
True in a sense that all who are baptized into Christ have put on
Christ. Paul was referring to baptism into the community at that time.
It was the Early Church, the Early Catholic Church.So baptism is needed
in the Catholic Church for salvation.
St. Augustine said something along these lines in one of his sermons:
“If you are the body of Christ and its members, it is your own mystery
that has been placed on the Lord’s table; what you are receiving is your
own mystery.”
How do we live the life of Christ?
That’s where I bring in the mystics. We’ve become too analytical. Our
approach is about law: Do good, avoid evil. But the mystic is one who,
through prayer, enters into the mystery of God as love. Christian life
is first of all a mystery, the mystery that the incredible,
incomprehensible love of God is the source of all that we are.
Lionel:
St.Francis of Assisi was a mystic but he also knew suffering and
mortification. It was within the Catholic Church that he had his
mystical experiences.He also believed there was a Hell and there were
many people there. He believed that all Muslims need to convert into
the Church to avoid Hell.
The mystical way is one of vision. The mystic moves from the head to the
heart to see the world in its true reality. The mystic doesn’t do what
is right out of duty, but because she or he sees the presence of God in
the poor, in the sick, in those who are anxious, in the marginalized.
Lionel:
St.Teresa of Avila was a mystic and wrote about the Seven Mansions,
with visions of the Blessed Trinity. She also taught that the Lutherans
were oriented to Hell.She saw demons, she was allowed to visit Hell.So
having mystical experiences is not enough.
Incarnation is also about seeing the hiddenness of God. Francis of
Assisi was very focused on the humility of God, who is hidden in
everyday, ordinary reality. What do you see when you see another person?
When you see a rabbit? A tree? A sand dune? Do you see only sand? Or do
you see something more?
What does that mean for how we treat the rest of creation?
We tend to treat the earth sort of like a backdrop for our lives. A
“cosmic christology” reminds us that every aspect of the cosmos is in
Christ, everything is Word incarnate. Everything bears the infinite love
of God, each in its own way, which means that there’s nothing earthly
that doesn’t have some divine dignity to it.
The medieval Franciscan theologian St. Bonaventure said the whole world
is exemplary of God because everything bears a relationship to God. God
created the quark and the star, the bacteria, the snake. Everything
reflects God in some way.
Because every created thing has a relationship to God, I can’t misuse,
abuse, or control it. Cosmic christology calls us to be in relationship
to created things as a sister or brother. We are all part of the one
cosmic family.
Lionel:
We have always been inter related at the level of nature. The universe
is one, blood is always read, we breathe the same air and there are
common laws of nature for all of us. This is not new.
The rain falls on the good and the bad.
Would you really abuse and misuse and manipulate a person or thing you claim to love? I hope not.
In that respect we have misused the things of the earth. We’ve been very
selfish and self-centered, and we have not treated the rest of creation
with a sense of dignity, respect, or reverence.
Understanding God in our midst in the natural world might give us a new
consciousness that we use things as gifts. All of life—our life and
every life—is a gift. That’s what love is about.
Does that mean God loves everything equally?
Another way to approach this is that each person, every single thing
that’s created is created uniquely out of the infinite love of God,
which means everything bears in its own unique, distinct way the
reflection of God’s love.
When we talk about God’s love, the model is the Trinity. The first
person of the Trinity, the Father or the fountain source of love, loves
one other than the Father—the Son. That relationship between the Father
and the Son is bound in a union of all things, the Holy Spirit.
In other words God’s love is uniquely and distinctly personal. God
doesn’t love in some general diffuse way. Your life and my life and
every single life is loved in a unique, personal, and distinct way.
Everything bears a unique expression of God in a way that cannot be
reproduced or clumped together, which makes everything uniquely lovable.
How do we start seeing with this broader vision?
The first thing is prayer. I don’t mean just saying prayers, such as the
Our Father or Hail Mary. I mean really praying to know yourself first
of all. In our very busy world we need to take time to be with God.
Lionel: Know yourself in a Vedic, Buddhist way?
People say that they’re not sure how to pray, but prayer is really just
talking that leads to deep dialogue. Do you talk to yourself? That’s
part of prayer. Who are we talking to when we talk to ourselves? It’s
God, the source of life within us.
Prayer is being at home with God in our everyday lives. Scripture can
help us because it gives us some language and insight as to who God is.
This is the ancient form of lectio divina. You read the scriptures and
then you meditate. You let them sink in. We’re so busy today that we
don’t even have time to let anything sink in, but there is no
christology without that, quite honestly.
The next step is looking at the life of Jesus, at his healing, mercy,
and forgiveness. The humanity of Jesus is our humanity. What he did in
his life is what we’re capable of doing as well. We’re capable of being
compassionate, of being merciful, of forgiving others.
Jesus sets the pattern for what makes salvation possible. And salvation
is really being made whole. The common image of Jesus in the New
Testament and the earliest Christian centuries was Jesus the physician.
Salvation is better seen in terms of health.
Lionel: Salvation
is going to Heaven and avoiding the pains of Hell.This is different
from the Eastern 'wholistic' concepts of ‘salvation’.
To be saved is to respond to and accept the love of God in our lives,
that grace of God that makes us whole. If we are whole, then what? We
help make others whole as well.
Lionel: If you are whole phsyically, mentally and spiritually and you are not in the Catholic Church you can be saved?
Can you give some specific examples of what needs healing?
We still have divisions within our local communities and in the
churches. We still have a lot of violence in the world. We have wars
that continue to proliferate. We still have poverty abounding, probably
more today than ever before. Why hasn’t Christianity made a difference
in the world? How is it we can still have the same problems that Jesus
had in his own time?
A lot of that has to do with the fact that we have not yet caught on to
the heart of Christianity, which is very simply stated in Jesus’ own
language: love of God, love of neighbor. Love is the essence of God’s
incarnation.
G. K. Chesterton said, “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found
wanting. It has been found difficult, and left untried.” That’s a
pretty hard saying, but there’s truth to it. What if however many
millions of Catholics there are really took up living as Christians by
living the Christ mystery, by living in the fullness of love?
Whenever there is conflict or there’s division, can we forgive? Can we
be merciful? Can we be compassionate? Can we love? Can we help bridge
those divisions, that brokenness?
Lionel: Love is important.
If I put this into practice, what does my life look like?
Say you meet a Muslim. You could respond, as some do, “You’re a Muslim.
You’re probably going to go to hell because you believe in the Qur’an,
and the Qur’an isn’t really the Word of God. That’s just a book.” You
might also judge the person’s accent as too foreign, so you don’t have
the patience to spend time trying to figure out what the person is
talking about.
But if you say that God is love, the first thing you realize is that
before you is an icon of Christ. This Muslim is one in whom God lives,
which means you must be patient and show respect for and interest in
that person. In this Muslim, God is revealing God’s self.
A mystical Christian encounters a person as an encounter with God. This
is incarnation now. We allow that person to be who they are because
that’s the person God created. I think it’s a matter of looking at the
person as an icon of God—one in whom God is shining through.
Lionel: The
Mystical experience is a gift of God. It is a grace. We cannot give
ourself a mystical experience as it is believed in the Oriental
religions and New Age.
Unfortunately, we don’t see people or the created world as icons.
Instead we treat them as objects—an object you can manipulate and
control.
You used the example of encountering a Muslim. How do other religions fit into this cosmic vision of Christ?
One thing we have to say is that other religions are not outside the Christ mystery.
Lionel:
What she means by a mystery is a mystery to me. Other religions are not
paths to salvation is still the teaching of the Catholic Church.(CDF, Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuios S.J 2001)
They are part and parcel of that mystery. That’s why dialogue with the
world’s religions is very important. How will we build the bridges of
God’s love unless we know other religions and their people?
Lionel: One has also to know one’s Catholic Faith before entering into dialogue.
One has to believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church.
We Christians are called to be bridge builders, and unless we do that,
we are going to continue to suffer violence in the world because a lot
of the violence is religious in nature. Christianity has the
responsibility to incarnate the love of God by reaching out to other
religions to talk about this mystery of God.
When you sit down face to face with another person and you start talking
about the things that really matter, you’re going to find more things
in common than things that divide. And I think when you find that bridge
of commonality, there is Christ.
I think there is more good to discover in other religions than to be
wary of. I think we would do better building bridges with that attitude.
And we each have role to play?
God seeks to be incarnate in an expanding incarnation. The Christ is
waiting to be born anew, if I can put it in that language. But Christ
cannot be born anew without our saying yes to bringing Christ into the
world.
I also think we need to lighten up a little bit and enjoy the ride.
Christian life is an adventure, God’s adventure in love. We need to
recapture a sense of this cosmic adventure in love and that we’re part
of it.
Science tells us that evolutionary creation will continue on earth for
billions of years. The evolutionary universe may go on for 100 trillion
years. A lot has happened before us, and a lot is going to happen after
us. So stay tuned. I think in the next billion years, the best is yet to
come.
Lionel: We could even be in the End Times over the next few years and the Day of Judgement will be there.
There is no scientific basis for assuming that there will be a billion years or that there has been a billion years.
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