Tuesday, November 20, 2012

SEDEVACANTIST VIDEO ASSUMES THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ETC IS EXPLICIT FOR US




Sedevacantists assume that the baptism of desire is explicit and known to us and so is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So they assume that the SSPX is heretical because they reject the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) also take it for granted that  the baptism of desire etc is explicit. They also accept it as an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. However in the SSPX  Chapter statement (July 19,2012) they have clarified that there is no salvation outside the Church and there are also no exceptions.

The MHFM in this video do not realize that the baptism of desire is irrelevant to the dogma. There are no known exceptions to the defined dogma.

So even if Archbishop Lefebvre says that a non Catholic can be saved in another religion it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.One can hold implicit baptism of desire alongwith the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.

When the Church Councils defined the dogma they were aware of implicit desire  and invincible ignorance mentioned by the Church Fathers.It does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.

The Dimond brothers in the video believe it would contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction  since for them implicit desire etc is explicit.

The Dimond brothers do not realize that to reject the baptism of desire of the Council of Trent is also heresy.

With this error they reject Vatican Council II as modernist Council and call the Catholic Church a sect.
-Lionel Andrades

AMAMI COME SEI - Parole di Gesù all'Anima (di Mons. Lebrun)

"Conosco la tua miseria, le lotte e le tribolazioni della tua anima, le deficienze e le infermità del tuo corpo; so la tua viltà, i tuoi peccati, e ti dico lo stesso: Dammi il tuo cuore, amami come sei... Se aspetti di essere un angelo per abbandonarti all'amore, non amerai mai.

Anche se sei vile nella pratica del dovere e della virtù, se ricadi spesso in quelle colpe che vorresti non ricommettere più, non ti permetto di non amarmi. Amami come sei. In ogni istante e in qualunque situazione tu sia, nel fervore o nell'aridità, nella fedeltà o nella infedeltà, amami... come sei...

Voglio l'amore del tuo povero cuore; se aspetti di essere perfetto, non mi amerai mai. Non potrei forse fare di ogni granello di sabbia un serafino radioso di purezza, di nobiltà e di amore? Non sono io l'Onnipotente? E se mi piace lasciare nel nulla quegli esseri meravigliosi e preferire il povero amore del tuo cuore, non sono io padrone del mio amore? Figlio mio, lascia che io Ti ami, voglio il tuo cuore.

Certo voglio col tempo trasformarti, ma per ora ti amo come sei... e desidero che tu faccia lo stesso; io voglio vedere dai bassifondi della miseria salire l'amore. Amo in te anche la tua debolezza, amo l'amore di poveri e dei miserabili; voglio che dai cenci salga continuamente un gran grido: "Gesù ti amo". Voglio unicamente il canto del tuo cuore, non ho bisogno ne' della tua scienza, ne' del tuo talento.

Una cosa sola m'importa, di vederti lavorare con amore. Non sono le tue virtù che desidero; se te ne dessi, sei così debole che alimenterebbero il tuo amor proprio; non ti preoccupare di questo. Avrei potuto destinarti a grandi cose; no, sarai il servo inutile; ti prenderò persino il poco che hai... perché ti ho creato soltanto per l'amore.

Oggi sto alla porta del tuo cuore come un mendicante, io il Re dei Re! Busso e aspetto; affrettati ad aprirmi. Non allargare la tua miseria; se tu conoscessi perfettamente la tua indigenza, moriresti di dolore. Ciò che mi ferirebbe il cuore sarebbe di vederti dubitare di me e mancare di fiducia. Voglio che tu pensi a me ogni ora del giorno e della notte; voglio che tu faccia anche l'azione più insignificante solo per amore.

Conto su di te per darmi gioia... Non ti preoccupare di non possedere virtù; ti darò le mie. Quando dovrai soffrire ti darò la forza. Mi hai dato l'amore, ti darò di saper amare al di là di quanto puoi sognare... Ma ricordati... amami come sei... Ti ho dato mia Madre; fa passare, fa passare tutto dal suo Cuore così puro.

Qualunque cosa accada, non aspettare di essere santo per abbandonarti all'amore, non mi ameresti mai... Va..."


http://www.paroledisaggezza.altervista.org/lebrun-amami_come_sei.htm

(English Text)

Jesus speaks to a soul

Love me as you are: by Mons. Lebrun

Dear friend, I know your misery, battles and tribulations of your soul, weakness and infirmity of your body. I know your cowardliness, your sins and shortness; even though I tell you: “give me your heart, love me as you are”.

If you wait to be an angel so you abandon to love, you’ll never love me. Even if you are coward doing practise of one's duty and practise virtue, and if you fall often in that blames that you never more would commit: I will not allow you not to love me.

Love me as you are. In each moment and in each situation, in aridity or in ardour,in faithfulness or in unfaithfulness love me as you are…I want your heart’s indigent love: If you wait to be perfect so you love me, you’ll never love me.

Couldn’t I, perhaps, of all grain of sand make a Seraph radiant of purity, of nobility and love ?

Am I not the Truth and Life inside the Omnipotent?

And if I like can I let live into the nothing that magnificent beings  and prefer the poor love of your heart; don’t am I the landlord of My Love ? Dear son, Let me love you, I want your heart. I would like to shape you. Certainly I want with time to transform you, but meanwhile I love you as you are… and I wish that you do the same; I want to see from the bottom of your misery love rises up.

 Inner you, I love, also, your weakness.I like the Poor’s and miserables love: I want that from neediness comes out continuously yell: “Lord, I love you!”

What’s matters me is your heart’s chant. I do not neither your Science nor your talent.

One things only is important for Me: to see you work with Love.Is not your virtuosity that I desire, if you have a lot of it, you should so weak that virtuosity will support your pride and arrogance.

Do not worry about it. Every one is predestined to make great good.No, you will not the superfluous servant; I will seized you by hand with little you have… because you are created only to augment and transform yourself. Today I stand on your heart’s door as a beggar, me, the Lord of Lords!

I Knock and I wait: hurry up and open to me: do not worry about your inner poorness. If you should knows perfectly the falls and your omissions: you should dead of grief.One thing can trespasses my heart: your doubts and your distrust in me.

I want you to think to me in each hour of the day and night; I want you to accomplish even the smallest and insignificant action for love; only for love.

I reckon on you to give me Joy…Don’t worry do not posses virtues: I will give you mine. When have to suffer I’ll give strength.You gave me love, I will give you to know love beyond you can dream.

But remember… “Love me as you are”.
I gave you My Mother, let cross inside you Her purity and Her immeasurable heart, to be you too in the new World !
Whichever things happens, don’t wait to be a saint to abandon yourself to love, you will not love never…

Let’s go …
http://www.associazioni.milano.it/club_world_italia/amami.htm

Up to 500,000 Demonstrate in France Against Gomorrah



From: The Eponymous Flower
Edit: Although the media are saying thousands, there may be as many as half a million protesting this. Here is a report from La Parisienne, courtesy of Gallia Watch, apparently not everyone in France is as "enlightened" as those in the United States, which overwhelmingly gave its approval for such things amid massive voter fraud:

Le Parisien reports that between 6,000 and 8,000 persons demonstrated in Marseille, proving that there are more than just drug dealers in the beleaguered city. However, counter-demonstrators unfurled a banner that read:

"Your model of society is dead, welcome to Sodom and Gomorrha".

Certainly the French Bishops deserve much credit for this one. Their response has been steady, united and consistent leading up to this event. It's certainly more than can be said of the US Bishops who singularly failed to make a victorious showing during the US Fall elections. One commenter on Gallia Watch soberly replies:

I think the resistance to this in the US has pretty much collapsed. The Cold War is long over, it's time to recognize that the US is essentially neo-Bolshevist and is the great revolutionary threat in the world today.



Here's a video outlining what's happened:

WIKIPEDIA SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II CONTRADICTS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND THE SSPX AND THE VATICAN DO NOT PROTEST

Due to this error the Society of St.Pius X is rejecting Vatican Council II and no one is making the correction on the Internet.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus)

Fr.Leonard Feeney's communities say they hold the literal interpretation of the dogma with no baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. They mean these cases are not known exceptions to the dogma on salvation according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.Yet they also say that Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma implying that there are explicit known cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance etc.So the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary  cannot be expected to ask Wikipedia for a correction based on rationality.

Archbishop Gerhard Muller and Augustine Di Noia of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,(CDF) Vatican endorse the Wikipedia error by saying elements of sanctification and invincible ignorance are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus(National Catholic Register interviews).They cannot be expected to ask Wikipedia for a correction.


Catholics in general assume that the dead are visible and they can be explicit exceptions to a defined dogma. So they use a modernist interpretation of Vatican Council II.


This misinformation on Wikipedia, widespread on other sources too,  is responsible for the SSPX not accepting Vatican Council II. It could also result in the CDF excommunciating the Society because they assume that  the Council ( with the false premise of being able to see the deceased saved) contradicts tradition.-Lionel Andrades
______________________________________________________

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus- Wikipedia .

Catholic interpretationThe Church's understanding of the significance of the phrase: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is expressed in its Catechism of the Catholic Church, 846-848, 851 as follows:

(As interpreted by Wikipedia)

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

(Even when all salvation comes from Christ  and we do not personally know all of these cases it does not contradict the dogma which says all  need to convert into the Church for salvation; to avoid Hell).

"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 14).

(Lumen Gentium 14 above affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and no where in Vatican Council II or the Catechism of the Catholic Church is it mentioned that we know exceptions to  extra ecclesiam nulla salus or that these exceptions are explicit.

Lumen Gentium 14 also states all need to enter 'as through a door')

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).

(Those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ  or his Church and who are saved are not known to us but are known only to God.So these cases are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Is Wikipedia implying that LG 16 is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
Do we have to assume that those who are saved by follwoing  the dictates of their conscience are known to us on earth, they are visible, and so are explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus? The Council does not say it. Wikpedia has to assume it.)

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him (Hebrews 11:6), the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men" (Second Vatican Council, Ad Gentes, 1).

(Yes there is an obligation to evangelize  and there are no exceptions to the dogma)

Missionary Motivation. It is from God's love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on," (2 Corinthians 5:14; cf. Apostolicam actuositatem 6, Roman Missal 11). Indeed, God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

(The Church must be missionary . Yes. The truth is outside the church there is no salvation and there are no known exceptions. Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance) also does not contradict Ad Gentes 7(all need to enter)

This conjunction of statements in the Catechism makes it clear that the Catholic Church sees the dogma "outside of the Church there is no salvation" as the basis for the missionary activity of the Church, because those who are innocently outside the Church but are also seeking to follow the will of God are thus the proper object of the Church's missionary activity - so as to bring them explicitly the saving truths of the Christian Faith which they are seeking, and by which God desires to effect their salvation through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

(This is false. We do not know any one  saved outside the Church in 2012 . There is no known case of a person saved who is still on earth and is in inculpable ignorance and neither can we say that any particular person will be saved.

The basis of the missionary activity of the Church is the dogma which says all need to convert into the church for salvation, all need faith and baptism (AG 7) and there are no known exceptions.)

 "And this is life everlasting that they know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent." (John 17.3), "And there is not salvation in any other. For neither is there any other name under heaven given to men, wherein we must be saved." (Acts 4.12)
(And they believed and were baptized in the Church, the community.There was only the Catholic Church at that time.)

The Catechism explicitly affirms this interpretation in paragraph 161 by insisting upon the necessity of actual faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
(Yes and CCC 845 and 846 mention the necessity of the Church for salvation).

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One Who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:36; 6:40; et al.). "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of His sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life `but he who endures to the end,'" (Vatican I, Dei Fillius 3; cf. Matthew 10:22; 24:13 and Hebrews 11:6; Council of Trent Decree on Justification, 8)

The Popes quoted above as stating that outside of the Church there is no salvation did not see this statement as contradicting their other statements that salvation is possible for those who, while not knowing the Church as necessary for salvation and thus not explicitly entering the Church, nevertheless accept whatever grace Christ gives them and thus receive what the Council of Trent called Baptism of Desire.

(Yes the dogma does not contradict the baptism of desire etc . Baptism of desire etc refer to implicit salvation and the dogma says all need to be explicit members of the Church. Implicit salvation is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

Pope Pius IX wrote in Quanto conficiamur moerore, 7:
There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.
(Again Wikipedia implies that invincible ignorance is an explicit exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.)

He saw their situation as different from that of people "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity … stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff," namely those of whom the Second Vatican Council said, as quoted above: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." For the invincibly ignorant, he saw their path to salvation as being through the mediation of the Church's missionary activity: "the sons of the Catholic Church… should always be zealous to seek them out and aid them, whether poor, or sick, or afflicted with any other burdens, with all the offices of Christian charity; and they should especially endeavor to snatch them from the darkness of error in which they unhappily lie, and lead them back to Catholic truth and to the most loving Mother the Church, who never ceases to stretch out her maternal hands lovingly to them, and to call them back to her bosom so that, established and firm in faith, hope, and charity, and 'being fruitful in every good work' (Colossians 1:10), they may attain eternal salvation. In his encyclical Mystici Corporis, 103 Pope Pius XII said that

(False. Being saved in invincible ignorance is irrelevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Pope Pius XII no where says that we know these cases explicitly or that they are exceptions to the dogma.He could be responding to this very error.He acknowledges those who can be saved in invincible ignorance, he accepts it in principle.It is Wikipedia which implies that these cases are explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.)
those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church… We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be secure about their salvation.[Cf. Pius IX, Iam Vos Omnes, 13 Sept. 1868] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.
(We personally cannot know who these cases are so they are irrelevant to the dogma. They cannot be considered 'exceptions'.)

As indicated above, the Catholic Church rejects both Feeneyism and (by stating that "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it")

(Those who know and or those who do not know are known only to God. So it is irrelevant to mention it here with relation to the dogma.We cannot judge anyone as being an exception.)

 the contrary notion that one can be saved while knowingly and deliberately rejecting the Catholic Church.

(We do not know who these cases are on earth).

Certain Traditionalists contend that the statement of Pius IX above from Quanto conficiamur moerore does not deny the need to know and hold the Catholic faith.The phrase of Pius IX in Quanto conficamur moerore, "effiacious virtue of divine light and grace", is vague and could simply mean that God would bring unbelievers explicitly to the gospel at some later point in their lives.
(Irrespective - it is not an exception to the dogma.)

The modern Catholic Church holds that, among those who "do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter… those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church" and that "(t)hose who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838-839).
(Fine. And this has no bearing on the dogma since these cases mentioned are known only to God.Is Wikipedia implying that these are exceptions?)
The Second Vatican Council further explained the status of non-Catholic Christians ("separated brethren") as follows (Unitatis Redintegratio, 3):

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.
(All Christians who are saved are known to God . Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith and baptism for salvation. Protestants do not have Catholic Faith which is necessary for salvation.They commit mortal sins of faith and morals and are oriented to Hell ,without the help of the Sacraments)

 Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too.
(We accept this in principle. Defacto we do not know any such case)

 All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.

(It is possible that they can be saved 'in certain circumstances' (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). However the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water(AG 7). All need to convert according to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla sallus.)

 For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those to whom He has given new birth into one body, and whom He has quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one body of Christ into which all those must be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God…
(Yes all must be fully incorporated in only the Catholic Church for salvation and we do not know any exceptions. Neither does the Council here claim that we know any exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus)

The Second Vatican Council also reemphasized the missionary motivation of this dogma (Lumen Gentium 13, 16):

ll men are called to this catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace. And in different ways to it belong, or are related: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation… Hence to procure the glory of God and the salvation of all these, the Church, mindful of the Lord's command, "preach the Gospel to every creature" (Mark 16.16) takes zealous care to foster the missions.
And also (Ad Gentes, 3):

The reason for missionary activity lies in the will of God, "Who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, Who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2.4-5), "neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4.12). Everyone, therefore, ought to become converted to Christ, who is known through the preaching of the Church, and they ought, by baptism, to become incorporated into Him, and into the Church which is His body. Christ Himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16.16, John 3.5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence, those cannot be saved, who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded through Jesus Christ, by God, as something necessary, still refuse to enter it, or to remain in it. So, although in ways known only to Himself, God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11.6),

(and who are not exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus)

 the Church nevertheless, still has the obligation and sacred right to evangelize. And today, as always, missionary activity retains its full force and necessity. By means of this activity the mystical Body of Christ unceasingly gathers and directs its energies towards its own increase (Ephesians 4:11-16). The members of the Church are impelled to engage in this activity because of the charity with which they love God and by which they desire to share with all men in the spiritual goods of this life and the life to come… Christ is the Truth and the Way which the preaching of the Gospel lays open to all men when it speaks those words of Christ in their ear: "Repent, and believe in the Gospel" (Mark 1;15). Since he who does not believe is already judged (cf. John 3:18), the words of Christ are at once words of judgement and grace, of life and death. For it is only by putting to death that which is old that we can come to the newness of life. Now although this refers primarily to people, it is also true of various worldly goods which bear the mark both of man's sin and the blessing of God: "For all have sinned and have need of the glory of God" (Romans 3.23). No one is freed from sin by himself or by his own efforts, no one is raised above himself or completely delivered from his own weakness, solitude or slavery; all have need of Christ Who is the model, master, liberator, savior, and giver of life (cf. Irenaeus, Av. Haer. 3.15.3: "They were preachers of truth and apostles of liberty.")

The 2000 declaration Dominus Iesus of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith states that "it must be firmly believed that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door."
(Extra ecclesiam nulla salus !)

 Dominus Iesus then adds that "for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit; it has a relationship with the Church, which, according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."

(Again is Wikipedia implying that those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church are known to us and so they are exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma?
If they are not visible to us how can they be exceptions? )


Many Traditionalists would contend that Church statements since the Second Vatican Council are a radical departure from what was originally taught by the Catholic Church. 
(Yes only if use the false premise of being able to see the dead alive on earth who are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Wikipedia has used the false premise .It suggests that Vatican Council II contradicts the literal interpretation of  extra ecclesiam nulla salus.)

 Many of the recent Vatican II Council's statements imply that those who do not know the gospel and adhere to other religions can be saved without holding the Catholic faith or religion.
(Note the word 'imply'.
Wikipedia implies that the deceased are visible and so Vatican Council II mentions exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus)

The Athanasian Creed, one of the oldest creeds of the Church confirmed by both the Council of Florence and Pope Gregory XVI,taught unequivocally that only those who held the Catholic Faith whole and inviolate could be saved from eternal damnation.
(And Vatican Council II does not contradict the Athanasian Creed).

The Athanasian Creed states "whosoever will be saved, above all it is necessary to hold the Catholic faith. Unless each one holds this faith whole and inviolate, without a doubt he will perish in eternity." Athanasian Creed. The statements of the Church since Vatican II, traditionalists argue, countermand the original Athanasian Creed by stating that Protestants, pagans, Muslims, Jews and others who do not hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate can still participate in salvation, and have the grace of faith. Most Holy Family Monastery in Fillmore, New York, and the Saint Benedict Center in Richmond, New Hampshire argue strenuously for this position.

(The traditionalists assume that there are explicit exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to the dogma.They assume  and imply like Wikipedia that the references to non Catholics being saved in Vatican Council II is not just accepted in principle but also known in fact.)

 Inculpable ignorance

In its statements of this doctrine quoted above, the Church expressly teaches that "it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God" (Singulari Quadam), that "outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control" (Singulari Quidem), that "they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life" (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore).

(None of these three references state that these cases are explicit Nor do they state that they are exceptions to the dogma. Wikipedia implies they are explicit and are known exceptions to the dogma).

Inculpable ignorance is not a means of salvation. But if by no fault of the individual ignorance cannot be overcome (if, that is, it is inculpable and invincible), it does not prevent the grace that comes from Christ, a grace that has a relationship with the Church, saving that person.

(Yes we accept this in principle and do not posit it against the literal interpretation of the dogma)

Controversy for the Catholic Church.
Those who disagree with the Church's interpretation of the teaching "outside the Church there is no salvation" claim that the Church has contradicted itself in its teachings on faith and morals.

(No it has not contradicted itself. Since no Magisterial texts claims that these cases are defacto,explicit exceptions to the dogma. The media/internet implies that they are. So there is a wrong interpretation of the Council,an irrational one.)

 They say that the medieval Church statements indicate that no person could possibly be saved unless a visible member of the Catholic Church on earth, and that this was the meaning intended by the Popes of the time, whom they contend made no "lenient statements" on the matter. However, several Church Fathers did in fact make exceptions to visible membership, citing for example baptism ex voto, pre-baptismal martyrdom, although they made it clear that salvation was still mediated by Christ through the Catholic Church, albeit in an invisible, extraordinary manner.
(The Church Fathers only mention these cases and do not state that they are known exceptions to us or that they can ever be known).

Still, certain people like Father Leonard Feeney and some traditionalists believe their understanding of the original doctrine to be correct and that, if the Church were now to teach that the salvation people outside formal membership in the Church is possible, it would contradict its earlier teaching, and would violate the doctrine of the Church's infallibility.
( Even if there was salvation outside the Church, non Catholics saved but  not  visible to us, how would it contradict the interpretation of  Fr. Leonard Feeney? One can affirm the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney along with implicit baptism of desire and being saved implicitly in invincible ignorance etc.
Since these  cases are  never explicit they are irrelevant to the dogma, they are not exceptions.
Theologically one can hold the position that 'there are only Catholics in Heaven' and that 'there is no known salvation outside the Church' and also affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known for centuries.The 'rigorist interpretation' is not contradicted by the baptism of desire etc.)
Some sedevacantists hold that the Second Vatican Council did in fact defect from the Church's infallible teaching, and that what is today generally recognized as the Catholic Church is a counterfeit, which therefore is not infallible.-Wikipedia
(The sedevacantists like the liberals assume that we can see the dead saved and they are visible interpretations to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors.)-
Lionel Andrades

On the Fewness of the Saved

This is a comment on the blog What Does the Prayer Really Say by Bill Foley.
Hell and the Enemy exist. Priests and bishops who don’t teach about them will probably wind up there. http://goo.gl/mZEAJ


Bill Foley says:

19 November 2012 at 7:52 pm

On the Fewness of the Saved

“The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God.”

-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“The common opinion is that the greater part of adults is lost.”

Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

The greater number of men still say to God: Lord we will not serve Thee; we would rather be slaves of the devil, and condemned to Hell, than be Thy servants. Alas! The greatest number, my Jesus – we may say nearly all – not only do not love Thee, but offend Thee and despise Thee.”

-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.”

-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“Saint Teresa, as the Roman Rota attests, never fell into any mortal sin; but still Our Lord showed her the place prepared for her in Hell; not because she deserved Hell, but because, had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned.”

-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church


“The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!”

-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church

“All persons desire to be saved, but the greater part, because they will not adopt the means of being saved, fall into sin and are lost. [...] In fact, the Elect are much fewer than the damned, for the reprobate are much more numerous than the Elect.”
-Saint Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Doctor of the Church
The horror of a place of intense suffering lasting for eternity!


“There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led into the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today’s Feast-Day: we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how few they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the Elect?”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was a symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above; and, at the summit, measured only a single cubit. [...] It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived: for the Holy Church is indeed wide in the number of those who are carnal-minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

“They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

"As a man lives, so shall he die.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

 
“It is certain that few are saved.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church


http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/hell.htm

“The Lord called the world a ‘field’ and all the faithful who draw near to him ‘wheat.’ All through the field, and around the threshing-floor, there is both wheat and chaff. But the greater part is chaff; the lesser part is wheat, for which is prepared a barn not a fire. [...] The good also are many, but in comparison with the wicked the good are few. Many are the grains of wheat, but compared with the chaff, the grains are few.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

“If you wish to imitate the multitude, then you shall not be among the few who shall enter in by the narrow gate.”
-Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.”
-Saint Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church


“Many begin well, but there are few who persevere.”
-Saint Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church


“So that you will better appreciate the meaning of Our Lord’s words, and perceive more clearly how few the Elect are, note that Christ did not say that those who walked in the path to Heaven are few in number, but that there were few who found that narrow way. It is as though the Saviour intended to say: The path leading to Heaven is so narrow and so rough, so overgrown, so dark and difficult to discern, that there are many who never find it their whole life long. And those who do find it are constantly exposed to the danger of deviating from it, of mistaking their way, and unwittingly wandering away from it, because it is so irregular and overgrown.”
-Saint Jerome, Father and Doctor of the Church

“What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!”
-Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

“I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.”
-Saint John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

“If you want to be certain of being in the number of the Elect, strive to be one of the few, not one of the many. And if you would be quite sure of your salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few; that is to say, do not follow the great majority of mankind, but follow those who enter upon the narrow way, who renounce the world, who give themselves to prayer, and who never relax their efforts by day or night, so that they may attain everlasting blessedness.”
-Saint Anselm, Father and Doctor of the Church

“Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.”
-Saint Bede the Venerable, Father and Doctor of the Church



“Nor should we think that it is enough for salvation that we are no worse off than the mass of the careless and indifferent, or that in our faith we are, like so many others, uninstructed.”
-Saint Bede the Venerable, Father and Doctor of the Church

“It is as though Jesus said: “O My Father, I am indeed going to clothe myself with human flesh, but the greater part of the world will set no value on my blood!”
-Saint Isidore of Seville, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The greater part of men will set no value on the blood of Christ, and will go on offending Him.”
-Saint Isidore of Seville, Father and Doctor of the Church

“How few the Elect are may be understood from the multitude being cast out.”
-Saint Hilary of Poitiers, Father and Doctor of the Church

“The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue.”
-Saint Justin the Martyr

“There are a select few who are saved.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

“Those who are saved are in the minority.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church


“It is granted to few to recognize the true Church amid the darkness of so many schisms and heresies, and to fewer still so to love the truth which they have seen as to fly to its embrace.”
-Saint Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church

“Bad confessions damn the majority of Christians.”
-Saint Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church

“I had the greatest sorrow for the many souls that condemned themselves to Hell, especially those Lutherans. [...] I saw souls falling into hell like snowflakes.”
-Saint Teresa of Avila, Doctor of the Church

"Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.”
-Saint John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church

“The number of the elect is so small — so small — that, were we to know how small it is, we would faint away with grief: one here and there, scattered up and down the world!”
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort

“Be one of the small number who find the way to life, and enter by the narrow gate into Heaven. Take care not to follow the majority and the common herd, so many of whom are lost. Do not be deceived; there are only two roads: one that leads to life and is narrow; the other that leads to death and is wide. There is no middle way.”
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort


“A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever. According to statistics, approximately 80,000 persons die every day. How many of these will die in mortal sin, and how many will be condemned! For, as their lives have been, so also will be their end.”
-Saint Anthony Mary Claret

“Nothing afflicts the heart of Jesus so much as to see all His sufferings of no avail to so many.”
-Saint John Mary Vianney

“Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to Heaven? Alas, my children, we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter.”
-Saint John Mary Vianney

“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard-pickers have passed.”
Saint John Mary Vianney

“Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.”
-Saint John Neumann

“So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved!”
-Saint Philip Neri

“Ah! How very small is the kingdom of Jesus Christ! So many nations have never had the faith!”
-Saint Peter Julian Eymard

“A great number of Christians are lost.”
-Saint Leonard of Port Maurice

“Ah, how many souls lose Heaven and are cast into Hell!”
-Saint Francis Xavier

“Ah! A great many persons live constantly in the state of damnation!”
-Saint Vincent de Paul

“Get out of the filth of the horrible torrent of this world, the torrent of thorns that is whirling you into the abyss of eternal perdition. [...] This torrent is the world, which resembles an impetuous torrent, full of garbage and evil odors, making a lot of noise but flowing swiftly passed, dragging the majority of men into the pit of perdition.”
-Saint John Eudes

“One day, I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end of the road without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And there numbers were so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness, and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings.”
-Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska, #153

“Fear and honor, praise and bless, thank and adore the Lord God Almighty, in Trinity and Unity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things. Do not put off any longer confessing all your sins, for death will soon come. Give and it will be given you; forgive and you will be forgiven. . . Blessed are they who die repentant, for they shall go to the Kingdom of Heaven! But woe to those who are not converted, for these children of the Devil will go with their father into everlasting fire. Be watchful, therefore. Shun evil, and persevere in well-doing until the end.”
-Saint Francis of Assisi

“Meditate on the horrors of Hell, which will last for eternity because of one easily-committed mortal sin. Try hard to be among the few who are chosen. Think of the eternal flames of Hell, and how few there are that are saved.”
-Saint Benedict Joseph Labre

“Yes, indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved.”
-Saint Benedict Joseph Labre

“The path to Heaven is narrow, rough and full of wearisome and trying ascents, nor can it be trodden without great toil; and therefore wrong is their way, gross their error, and assured their ruin who, after the testimony of so many thousands of saints, will not learn where to settle their footing.”
-Saint Robert Southwell

“Oh how much are the worldlings deceived that rejoice in the time of weeping, and make their place of imprisonment a palace of pleasure; that consider the examples of the saints as follies, and their end as dishonorable; that think to go to Heaven by the wide way that leadeth only to perdition!”
-Saint Robert Southwell

“Live with the few if you want to reign with the few.”
-Saint John Climacus

“The number of the damned is incalculable.”
-Saint Veronica Giuliani

“I see around me a multitude of those who, blindly persevering in error, despise the true God; but I am a Christian nevertheless, and I follow the instruction of the Apostles. If this deserves chastisement, reward it; for I am determined to suffer every torture rather then become the slave of the devil. Others may do as they please since they are [...] reckless of the future life, which is to be obtained only by sufferings. Scripture tells us that “narrow is the way that leads to life” [...] because it is one of affliction and of persecutions suffered for the sake of justice; but it is wide enough for those who walk upon it, because their faith and the hope of an eternal reward make it so for them. [...] On the contrary, the road of vice is in reality narrow, and it leads to an eternal precipice.”
-Saint Leo of Patara

“Brethren, the just man shall scarcely be saved. What, then, will become of the sinner?”
-Saint Arsenius

“Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh. [...] With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned.”
-Saint Regimius or Rheims

“How many among these uncivilized peoples do not yet know God, and are sunk in the darkest idolatry, superstition and ignorance! [...] Poor souls! These are they in whom Christ saw, in all the horror of His imminent Passion, the uselessness of His agony for so many souls!”
-Saint Francis Xavier Cabrini

“O Jesus! [...] Remember the sadness that Thou didst experience when, contemplating in the light of Thy divinity the predestination of those who would be saved by the merits of Thy sacred passion, thou didst see at the same time the great multitude of reprobates who would be damned for their sins, and Thou didst complain bitterly of those hopeless, lost, and unfortunate sinners.”
-Saint Bridget of Sweden

“The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few – not as many as ten – went strait to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and those cast into Hell were as numerous as snowflakes in mid-winter.”
-Blessed Anna Maria Taigi


“They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary path, shall be abandoned.”
-Blessed Angela of Foligno

“One day, Saint Macarius found a skull and asked it whose head it had been. ‘A pagan’s!’ it replied. ‘And where is your soul?’ he asked. ‘In Hell!’ came the reply. Macarius then asked the skull if its place was very deep in Hell. ‘As far down as the earth is lower than Heaven!’ ‘And are there any other souls lodged even lower?’ ‘Yes! The souls of the Jews!’ ‘And even lower than the Jews?’ ‘Yes! The souls of bad Christians who were redeemed with the blood of Christ and held there privilege so cheaply!’”
-Blessed James of Voragine

“I fear that Last Day, that day of tribulation and anguish, of calamity and misery, of mist and darkness, that Day on which, if the just have reason to fear, how much more should I: an impious, wretched, and ungrateful sinner!”
-Blessed Sebastian Valfre

“I was watching souls going down into the abyss as thick and fast as snowflakes falling in the winter mist.”
-Blessed Benedict Joseph Labre

“Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God’s will only condemns them to more severe punishment.”
-Blessed John of Avila

“So many people are going to die, and almost all of them are going to Hell! So many people falling into hell!”
Blessed Jacinta of Fatima

“Taking into account the behavior of mankind, only a small part of the human race will be saved.”
-Lucy of Fatima

-Bill  Foley

Making a sincere confession of all your mortal sins in kind and number, can keep you out of Hell- Fr.John Zulsdorf
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/making-sincere-confession-of-all-your.html#links