Thursday, February 11, 2016

Chris Ferrara - Mark Shea debate : both are theologically rejecting the dogma EENS

I have only seen a few minuties of the video in which Chris Ferrara and Mark Shea begin the debate.

Chris Ferrara says all need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation and specifically affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus yet I know theologically he assumes the baptism of desire etc refer to explicit cases of persons saved without the baptism of water. So they are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) which he has affirmed in this debate. He contradicts himself like the rest of the Church. He says all need to convert but then also says all do not need to convert. There are exceptions for him.
He is irrational since if the baptism of desire and blood, allegedly without the baptism of water is an exception to the dogma EENS then these cases would have to be explicit in 2016 or some time in the past. Invisible cases cannot be exceptions.Yet we know that if someone was saved with the baptism of desire  he would be in Heaven and there would be no way any one on earth could have seen or known this person, saved without the baptism of water.Chris Ferrara's position is contradictary, irrational , non traditional and heretical.
Related image
Mark Shea does not believe every one needs to enter the Church since he also assumes that being saved with the baptism of desire and blood are exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS.He thinks Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong. In other words Fr. Feeney was wrong since he would not say like Mark Shea that there were known exceptions to the traditional intepretation of the dogma EENS. He would not say like Shea that there are exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church, and that the  Baptism or  Lutheran can be saved since there are known exceptions to the dogma EENs. Vatican Council II mentions this exception for him, in Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance). For Mark Shea LG 16 refers to explicit cases in 2016 or in the past who are known to be in Heaven without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
-Lionel Andrades

Michael Davis, Romano Amerio, Dietrich von Hildebrand were not aware of the irrational premise : Michael Mat, Chris Ferrara, John Rao, James Bogle, Joseph Shaw agree?

So if we do not know of any such case how can it be an exception to the dogma for Mark Shea ? This was the objective mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949

Chris Ferrara Vs Mark Shea

Another type of revolution in the Catholic Church

Comments from Fr.Ray Blakes blog 

Future of the TLM Mass

Paul Hellyer said...
You are so right. But it will take many years before the true expession of the Catholic faith will return to our parishes. Meanwhile we must suffer the lack of reverence of a committee made liturgy.
No it will not take many years.
The priests or a bishop simply has to announce that hypothetical cases of salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II are only hypothetical, and not de facto known in the present times. There is no objective case of someone saved in invincible ignorance with or without the baptism of water. There is no known case of someone being seen in Heaven in 2016 without the baptism of water.
This is all.
This is all that has to be announced and the ball will start rolling.
Lay Catholics will proclaim it.
It will be at the TLM and the Novus Ordo Mass.
Catholics will be saying there is exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.
They will be believe and proclaim that the rest of the world is going to Hell unless they formally convert into the Catholic Church.
Think of the change in catechesis.
Think of the impact at the level of the ordinary laity.
It will be another type of revolution.
-Lionel Andrades

No one is preaching membership in the Church is necessary for salvation even though Vatican Council II says this and this was part of the TLM ecclesiology for centuries

Apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre: On Fasting and Abstinence 14 February 1982



Apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre: On Fasting and Abstinence 14 February 1982

by Adrienne

Taken from a post on Crusaders of The Immaculate Heart Website:

Apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre - Volume 3, Chapter LXII
Fasting and Abstinence
14 February 1982
My dear brethren,
According to an ancient and salutary tradition in the Church, on the occasion of the beginning of Lent, I address these words to you in order to encourage you to enter into this penitential season wholeheartedly, with the dispositions willed by the Church and to accomplish the purpose for which the Church prescribes it.
If I look in books from the early part of this century, I find that they indicate three purposes for which the Church has prescribed this penitential time:
* first, in order to curb the concupiscence of the flesh;
* then, to facilitate the elevation of our souls toward divine realities;
* finally, to make satisfaction for our sins.
Our Lord gave us the example during His life, here on earth: pray and do penance. However, Our Lord, being free from concupiscence and sin, did penance and made satisfaction for our sins, thus showing us that our penance may be beneficial not only for ourselves but also for others.
Pray and do penance. Do penance in order to pray better, in order to draw closer to Almighty God. This is what all the saints have done, and this is that of which all the messages of the Blessed Virgin remind us.
Would we dare to say that this necessity is less important in our day and age than in former times? On the contrary, we can and we must affirm that today, more than ever before, prayer and penance are necessary because everything possible has been done to diminish and denigrate these two fundamental elements of Christian life.
Never before has the world sought to satisfy - without any limit, the disordered instincts of the flesh, even to the point of the murder of millions of innocent, unborn children. One would come to believe that society has no other reason for existence except to give the greatest material standard of living to all men in order that they should not be deprived of material goods.
Thus we can see that such a society would be opposed to what the Church prescribes. In these times, when even Churchmen align themselves with the spirit of this world, we witness the disappearance of prayer and penance-particularly in their character of reparation for sins and obtaining pardon for faults. Few there are today who love to recite Psalm 50, the Miserere, and who say with the psalmist, Peccatum meum contra me est semper-"My sin is always before me." How can a Christian remove the thought of sin if the image of the crucifix is always before his eyes?
At the Council the bishops requested such a diminution of fast and abstinence that the prescriptions have practically disappeared. We must recognize the fact that this disappearance is a consequence of the ecumenical and Protestant spirit which denies the necessity of our participation for the application of the merits of Our Lord to each one of us for the remission of our sins and the restoration of our divine affiliation [i.e., our character as adoptive sons of God].
In the past the commandments of the Church provided for:
* an obligatory fast on all days of Lent with the exception of Sundays, for the three ember days and for many vigils;
* abstinence was for all Fridays of the year, the Saturdays of Lent and, in numerous dioceses, all the Saturdays of the year.
What remains of these prescriptions-the fast for Ash Wednesday and Good Friday and abstinence for Ash Wednesday and the Fridays of Lent.
One wonders at the motives for such a drastic diminution. Who are obliged to observe the fast? -adults from age 21 to 60. And who are obliged to observe abstinence? -all the faithful from the age of 7 years.
What does fasting mean? To fast means to take only one (full) meal a day to which one may add two collations (or small meals), one in the morning, one in the evening which, when combined, do not equal a full meal.
What is meant by abstinence? By abstinence is meant that one abstains from meat.
The faithful who have a true spirit of faith and who profoundly understand the motives of the church which have been mentioned above, will wholeheartedly accomplish not only the light prescriptions of today but, entering into the spirit of Our Lord and of the Blessed Virgin Mary, will endeavor to make reparation for the sins which they have committed and for the sins of their family, their neighbors, friends and fellow citizens.
It is for this reason that they will add to the actual prescriptions. These additional penances might be to fast for all Fridays of Lent, abstinence from all alcoholic beverages, abstinence from television, or other similar sacrifices. They will make an effort to pray more, to assist more frequently at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to recite the Rosary, and not to miss evening prayers with the family. They will detach themselves from their superfluous material goods in order to aid the seminaries, help establish schools, help their priests adequately furnish the chapels and to help establish novitiates for nuns and brothers.
The prescriptions of the Church do not concern fast and abstinence alone but the obligation of the Paschal Communion (Easter Duty) as well. Here is what the Vicar of the Diocese of Sion, in Switzerland, recommended to the faithful of that diocese on 20 February 1919:
1. During Lent, the pastors will have the Stations of the Cross twice a week; one day for the children of the schools and another day for the other parishioners. After the Stations of the Cross, they will recite the Litany of the Sacred Heat
2. During Passion Week, which is to say, the week before Palm Sunday, there will be a Triduum in all parish churches, Instruction, Litany of the Sacred Heart in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament, Benediction. In these instructions the pastors will simply and clearly remind their parishioners of the principal conditions to receive the Sacrament of Penance worthily.
3. The time during which one may fulfill the Easter Duty has been set for all parishes from Passion Sunday to the first Sunday after Easter.
Why should these directives no longer be useful today? Let us profit from this salutary time during the course of which Our Lord is accustomed to dispense grace abundantly. Let us not imitate the foolish virgins who having no oil in their lamps found the door of the bridegroom's house closed and this terrible response: Nescio vos-"I know you not." Blessed are they who have the spirit of poverty for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. The spirit of poverty means the spirit of detachment from things of this world.
Blessed are they who weep for they shall be consoled. Let us think of Jesus in the Garden of Olives who wept for our sins. It is henceforth for us to weep for our sins and for those of our brethren.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for holiness for they shall be satisfied. Holiness-sanctity is attained by means of the Cross, penance and sacrifice. If we truly seek perfection then we must follow the Way of the Cross.
May we, during this Lenten Season, hear the call of Jesus and Mary and engage ourselves to follow them in this crusade of prayer and penance.
May our prayers, our supplications, and our sacrifices obtain from heaven the grace that those in places of responsibility in the Church return to her true and holy traditions, which is the only solution to revive and reflourish the institutions of the Church again.
Let us love to recite the conclusion of the Te Deum: In te Doming, speravi; non confundar in aeternum-"In Thee, O Lord, I have hoped. I will not be confounded in eternity."
+ Marcel Lefebvre
Sexagesima Sunday-14 February 1982
Rickenbach, Switzerland