Sunday, November 29, 2015

Joseph Shaw removes comment : maintains Cushingite image


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Joseph Shaw has removed the link Questions for Dr.Joseph Shaw : answers from me, from the comments section of his blog post : The Good Friday Prayer and the conversion of the Jews.

We must note that Joseph Shaw has always been a Cushingite.Otherwise he would not receive the mandatum to teach theology.For the Cushingite, the baptism of desire refers to explicit cases. For the Cushingite being saved in invincible ignorance refers to objective cases of non Catholics saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.They can see ghosts on earth.
For the Cushingite, Lumen Gentium 16 ( being saved in invincible ignorance) refers to objective cases in 2015. So LG 16 refers to an objective exception to all needing to formally enter the Church, which was the old theology.
So the Latin Mass which Joseph Shaw promotes is with the new theology. It is with irrational Cushingism.It is an innovation. It is non traditional and heretical but if Joseph Shaw affirms the contrary- traditional Feeneyism- he will not be allowed to teach theology. The Catholic bishops in England would object.The Jewish Left would say he is anti-Semitic.The liberals would say is rejecting Vatican Council II ( intepreted with Cushingism).He could no more be associated with the Latin Mass Society recognised by the Vatican.Since the Vatican accepts the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston. The first part of the Letter is Feeneyite while the second part of the Letter is Cushingite.
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Similarly Fr.Brian Harrison whom Joseph Shaw quotes on another blog post is a Cushingite. He would not want to be considered anti-Semitic and end his career as a Catholic theologian.
I am a Feeneyite. I do not know of any objective exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. For me LG 16 refers to invisible cases known only to God. So LG 16 is not a break with the old ecclesiology. For me Vatican Council II supports extra ecclesiam nulla salus as interpreted by Fr. Leonard Feeney, the popes, saints and Church Councils.
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When I read references to the baptism of desire and blood and saved in invincible ignorance, or the 'seeds of the Word', 'good and holy things' in other religions or 'imperfect communion with the Church', I know these are references to hypothetical cases. So for me they are not explicit as they are for Joseph Shaw and Fr. Brian Harrison and the SSPX bishops. So for me they cannot be exceptions to the old ecclesiology which says all Jews, and other non Catholics, need to convert into the Church in the present times, for salvation.
Joseph Shaw instead is saying all Jews need to believe in Jesus for salvation, without specifying that for salvation they need to enter only the Catholic Church, as do the Protestants , Pentecostals and Orthodox Christians.Vatican Council II says all need faith(AG 7, LG 14) for salvation.Christians in other denominations do not have Catholic Faith.This is rejected by Joseph Shaw since he supports the new theology, which is based on Cushingism, and which is accepted by the contemporary Magisterium.
-Lionel Andrades

New comments are in the colour purple.

Questions for Dr.Joseph Shaw : answers from me

Here are my answers to the previous blog post. I hope they will help.

Questions for Dr.Joseph Shaw

Related imageIn a previous blog post I commented on a report by Dr.Joseph Shaw1 who correctly says according to Scripture and Tradition Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation. He also is aware of confusion on this issue in the statements of the contemporary magisterium.
I see the same confusion in the position of the SSPX and traditionalists and I hope Joseph Shaw, a professor of theology and philosophy at Oxford University, England could comment on the following points. They are taken from the previous two posts on this blog.1 I have re-phrased them in the form of questions.

1. Can Dr.Joseph Shaw affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) in agreement with the traditional (Council of Trent) interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) which mentions no explicit exception ?
Lionel: For me they are in agreement.
Lionel: He cannot affirm it since for him LG 16 refers to explicit cases.So Vatican Council II becomes a break with the old ecclesiology associated with the Traditional Latin Mass.

2.Does he accept Feeneyism ( there are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus) or does he accept irrational Cushingism ( there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).This includes the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance) ?
Lionel: I accept Feeneyism.Cushingism is irrational, non traditional, heretical and an innovation.
Lionel: He has to accept Cushingism to keep his canonical mandate to teach theology.
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3.The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales proclaims Jesus without the necessity of formal entry into the Catholic Church for salvation. It is Jesus without the Catholic Church ?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: For the CBEW LG 16 is a break with the old ecclesiology.So they accept Vatican Council II with this break with the past.
For me as a  Feeneyite, LG 16 refers to invisible cases. Possibilities which will be followed with the baptism of water.Any way , they are hypothetical. So LG 16 is not a break with the old ecclesiology associated with the Traditional Latin Mass.

4.Pope Benedict and Pope John  Paul II were Cushingites.For them Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong and Cardinal  Richard Cushing and the Holy Office 1949 were correct.They interpreted all Church documents with Cushingism( there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS) ?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: For the traditionalist Joseph Shaw, Cardinal Cushing and the Holy Office, were correct and Fr. Leonard  Feeney was wrong.
5.Pope Pius XII could not say that all Jews in Boston need to formally convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.Neither could any of the popes later affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with the old ecclesiology?
Lionel: Yes.

6.According to Vatican Council II' the Church is the new people of God'(Nostra Aetate 4), Catholics  are the new chosen people (Nostra Aetate 4),the elect ? 
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: Joseph Shaw never mentions Nostra Aetate 4. It will displease the bishops and the Left who oversee his work.

7.Jesus made a new and everlasting Covenant with his Supreme Sacrifice, it was for all, including the Jews ?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: No mention of Nostra Aetate 4 and the New Covenant made by Jesus.

8.Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston.The second half of the Letter shows he assumed 'desire and longing for the baptism of water/implicit desire' and being saved in 'invincible ignorance ' as being 1) explicit cases, personally known and 2) they excluded the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?
'it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.'- Letter of the Holy Office 1949
'With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire...'- Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel: Yes.

9.So he concluded that these cases were relevant and exceptions to the dogma EENS?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel : Joseph Shaw and the other traditionalists accept this irrationality. They have the same position here, as the liberals and the Left.

10. This was irrational.How could any human being see and know such a case in 1949? What is the name and surname of someone saved outside the Church in 1949?
Lionel: It was irrational. We cannot physically see or know any exceptions in the present times.Neither was this possible in 1949.
Lionel: It is irrational but Joseph Shaw does not talk about it . Since his Cushingite theology, as that of the English bishops, depends upon this irrationality.

11.The baptism of desire ( implicit desire and longing), baptism of blood ( a martyr who allegedly dies without the baptism of water) and being saved in invincible ignorance ( also allegedly without the baptism of water), all  being personally known ( to be an exception to the dogma EENS) - are really irrelevant to the dogma EENS and Vatican Council II's Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentes 14 (which says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation) ?.
Lionel: Yes, they are irrelevant.
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Lionel: But they are relevant for the Left, the liberals and traditionalists.Even for Michael Voris and Fr. John Zuhlsdorf they are relevant. If they did not make it relevant they would not be Cushingites. If it was just accepted as theoretical cases, possibilities not explicit and so not relevant to the dogma EENS, they would be affirming the Feenyite version of EENS, the strict interpretation.

12.So all in 2015 need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This includes Protestants and Orthodox Christians who do not have Catholic Faith (AG 7, LG 14) ?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: Joseph Shaw teaches the new theology which rejects this teaching of Vatican Council II (AG 7 and LG 14) and the dogma EENS. He supports the new ecumenism with Cushingism.
For me as a Feeneyite, Vatican Council II has not changed traditional ecumenism.All Christians need to convert into the Catholic Church formally; with Catholic Faith (AG 7, LG 14 and the dogma EENS). Catholic Faith includes the Sacraments and the faith and moral teachings of the Church in accord with Tradition. As Cushingites the liberals will reject this.But why do Joseph Shaw and the traditionalists have to accept the liberal version?
They could affirm Feeneyism and accept Vatican Council II with the old ecclesiology. There would be no break between the present magisterial teachings and those in times before the Council of Trent.The liberals cannot accuse them of rejecting Vatican Council II.

13.The new ecclesiology, the new theology, is  irrational. Since it is based on  Cushingism ?
Lionel: Yes.

14. It is based on an objective and factual error, an empirical error?
Lionel: Yes. People in Heaven are not objectively visible on earth.

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15. To offer the Traditional Latin Mass today, unlike in the past, the priest has to affirm Cushingism?
Lionel: Yes.

16.At the time  when the original Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was composed theology was based on Feeneyism i.e there were no known exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church ?
Lionel: Yes.

17.Today the mandatum to teach theology, is given by the contemporary magisterium, only to those who reject Feeneyism and support a theology based on being able to see in the flesh, people in Heaven, who are there without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?
Lionel: Yes.
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18.Pope Benedict affirmed Cushingism when he approved two theological papers of the International Theological Commission, 'Christianity and the World Religions' and 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized' ?


ITC documents 'Christianity and the World Religions' and 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized ' need to be retracted or corrected: Richard Cushing flaw runs through http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/06/itc-documents-christianity-and-world.html#links
International Theological Commission (ITC) makes an objective, factual error in two of its published documents. Could they also be wrong about Limbo? http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/03/international-theological-commission_2687.html#links
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION USES PREMISE THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT : LIMBO
The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
Lionel: Yes.

19.Dominus Iesus and Redemptoris Missio is Cushingite and had the approval of  Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Perfect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican?.
When Redemptoris Missio and Dominus Iesus were issued neither did Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger know of any exceptions to the dogma  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/03/when-redemptoris-missio-and-dominus.html
Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Missio carry the Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani mistake http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/03/dominus-iesus-redemptoris-missio-carry.html
Lionel: Yes.
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20.The Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II are Cushingite. Since they mention BOD, BOB and I.I, which are irrelevant to the old ecclesiology and the dogma EENS?
Lionel: Yes.

21. For  Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI BOD, BOB and I.I were 1) objectively visible and 2) and excluded the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. So they were mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church ?
Lionel: Yes.

22. They were made relevant in Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Mission, the Balamand Declaration, the theological papers of the ITC etc.
 Summorum Pontificum approved the old Mass - but, it was understood, with the new ecclesiology?

There are no visible exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Catholic Church http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/there-are-no-visible-exceptions-to-all.html

Lionel: Yes.

23. Summorum Pontificum excludes the necessity of formal entry into the Catholic Church for salvation?
Lionel: Yes according to the Vatican. However a priest can still offer the Traditional Latin Mass and choose Feeneyism as a theology.
Lionel: Joseph Shaw, the correspondents of Rorate Caeli, and The Remnant, accept Summorum Pontificum, along with the new theology.
I attend the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass rejecting the new theology . I attend Mass still accepting the old theology, the old ecclesiology.
This means I accept Vatican Council II and interpret it with Feeneyism( LG 16 is not explicit and not an exception to EENS, there are no exceptions to EENS).While Joseph Shaw accepts Vatican Council II, like the English bishops, but interprets it with Cushingism ( LG 16 refers to a visible case in the present times (2015) and so is a break with the old ecclesiology). I reject Vatican Council II interpreted with Cushingism.
I accept the first part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and reject the second part.I accept implicit for us baptism of desire and blood and reject explicit for us baptism of desire and blood.
I accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1257) which says the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. However when CCC 1257 also says 'God is not limited to the Sacrament's, this refers to a theoretical, hypothetical case for me. So it does not contradict the first part of CCC 1257, which is orthodox and supports Fr. Leonard Feeney.CCC 1257 as a whole does not contradict the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS.
When CCC 846 says all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church,this is acceptable. It does not refer to any explicit exception to the dogma EENS. So it does not contradict CCC 846 which cites Ad Gentes saying all need faith and baptism for salvation.CCC 846 as a whole does not contradict the Feeneyite version of EENS.
So I am a Feeneyite who affirms the Cathechism of the Catholic Church,Vatican Council II and the first part only of the Letter of the Holy Office.I accept the Council of Trent where the phrase' the desire thereof' refers to a hypothetical case.Similarly the reference to the baptism of desire and blood in the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of Pope Pius X also refers to a hypothetical case.So it is irrelevant to the 'strict' interpretation of the dogma EENS.It is irrelevant to the orthodox passage in Vatican Council II which says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation (AG 7, LG 14).
24. The saints Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Maximillian Kolbe etc were Feeneyites?
Lionel: Yes.

25.No where does Nostra Aetate say that Jews in general do not need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation?
Lionel: Yes.

QUESTIONS RELATED THE RECONCILIATION OF THE SSPX 

1. Would you agree that the reference in the Council of Trent to 'the desire thereof' refers to a hypothetical case?
Lionel: Yes. I would agree.
Lionel: For Joseph Shaw, the Vatican Curia and the SSPX bishops and priests, the desire therof/ the baptism of desire is an exception to the Feeneyite version of the dogma. Since it is an exception for them, they infer that these cases are explicit, seen in the flesh, to be exceptions to the traditional ecclesiology.The inference is irrational.It is at the centre of the new theology which they have accepted.

2. It could not be a reference to a formally known case, someone personally known who has been saved as such?
Lionel: Yes. I agree.

3.If someone was saved as such he would be in Heaven and we humans could not know about it?
Lionel: Yes.
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4.The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) and the Vatican could  announce that the reference in the Council of Trent to implicit desire ( or the desire thereof ) 1 refers to a hypothetical case ?
Lionel: Yes they must do so.
Lionel: Joseph Shaw is not making any such announcement even though it is something obvious.

5.The SSPX and the Vatican could announce that the baptism of desire (BOD) and baptism of blood (BOB)  mentioned in the Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of Pope Pius X a refer to hypothetical cases ? 
Lionel: Yes.
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Lionel: No announcement from Joseph Shaw.
Fr.Marco Hausmann who offers the Traditional Latin Mass for the Militia Christi members in Rome said the obvious. He said that BOB and BOD, of course, referred to invisible cases for us human beings.There were was a reaction from the Rome Vicariate.The next Sunday he did not offer the Traditional Latin Mass. There was concern among the traditionalists.Some thought I was the cause of the problem.An announcement was made at Mass that Bishop Matteo Zuppi, the Auxiliary Bishop of Rome would be coming to visit the members of this traditionalist community.
Fr.Hausmann, who is associated with a diocesan bishop outside Italy, now interprets magisterial documents with Cushingism. He offers the old Mass with the new ecclesiology. 

6. The SSPX and the Vatican  must agree, and announce, that BOD and BOB being hypothetical for us could not be an exception to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) ?
Lionel: Yes

7.Since they are hypothetical cases they cannot be relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as interpreted by Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston  and the  St.Benedict Center ?
Lionel: Yes, agreed.

8.Hypothetical cases cannot be objective exceptions in 2015 to all needing to formally enter the Church for salvation.The Holy Office 1949 and the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing made an objective error?
Lionel: Yes they made an error.

9.Objectively for us humans, in our reality,  there cannot be any case of BOD or BOB?
Lionel: Yes. They are known only to God.

10.The SSPX and the Vatican could announce that BOD, BOB and being saved in invincible ignorance (I.I)  refer to salvation in Heaven of hypothetical cases . Similarly Lumen Gentium 16, Lumen Gentium 8, Unitatitis Redintigratio 3 and Nostra Aetate 2 in Vatican Council II refer to salvation in Heaven known only to God ?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel : Joseph Shaw could clarify that Lumen Gentium 16, Lumen Gentium 8, Unitatitis Redintigratio 3 and Nostra Aetate 2 in Vatican Council II refer to salvation in Heaven, known only to God.Rationally this should not be difficult.

11. Since salvation in Heaven is not visible to us, defacto and in theory, it  cannot be an explicit exception, for us human beings,  to the dogmatic teaching on all needing to formally enter the Church in 2015.It's a non-issue ?
Lionel: Yes.

12.All need faith and baptism for salvation and we cannot see , know or meet an exception on planet earth.So there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: For the St. Benedict Centers, the  Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary today,  LG 16 is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are traditionalists like Joseph Shaw and attend the Traditional Latin Mass in the diocese of Manchester and Worcester, USA. They interpret Vatican Council II with Cushingism as does Joseph Shaw.Their bishops are Cushingites.

13.There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict all needing faith and baptism for salvation (AG 7, LG 14) ?
Lionel: Yes.

14.The reference to BOD and BOB in Vatican Council II are to possibilities known only to God and always unknown to us ?
Lionel: Yes.

15.They would also be followed by the baptism of water since this is the dogmatic teaching of EENS?
Lionel: Yes.

 16.There are no exceptions to EENS in Vatican Council II, since hypothetical cases cannot be exceptions, so the Catholic Church's traditional ecclesiology has not changed?
Lionel: Yes it has not changed according to magisterial texts when the irrational premise ( visible cases in Heaven of non Catholics saved without the baptism of water) and irrational inference ( these cases are visible, seen in the flesh exceptions to the dogma EENS), is avoided.
Lionel:The traditional teaching has not changed for me as a Feeneyite. However it has changed for Joseph Shaw and the Feeneyites Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, at the St. Benedict Centers in the USA. They (SBC) interpret the dogma EENS with Feeneyism and Vatican Council II with Cushingism.

17.There is no change in the Church's traditional teaching on other religions and ecumenism?
Lionel: Yes.There is no change. The change came with the use of the irrational premise and inference. The distinction between what is invisible and visible, hypothtetical and objective was not made.
Lionel: For me a Feeneyite there is no change with Vatican Council II on the Church's traditional teaching on other religions and ecumenism. For the Cushingite Joseph Shaw there is a change. Even for the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, who are Cushingites, with respect to Vatican Council II, there is a change.They follow the SSPX here. Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre like Cardinal Ratzinger was a Cushingite.

18.Since ecclesiology has not changed the Church's teachings on religious liberty and the Social Kingship of Christ the King over all political systems has not changed according to the text of Vatican Council II?
Lionel: Yes.There is no change since the strict interpretation of EENS is central to the other two concepts.Since outside the Church there is no salvation, all non Catholics need to convert formally into the Church. All need to be card carrying members of the Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell .Since outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation all political legislation must be based on the Social Kingship of Christ the King. There cannot be a separation of Church  and State.
Lionel: Joseph Shaw affirms the traditional teaching on religious liberty and the Social Kingship of Christ the King, based on magisterial documents of the past. So do I.For me Vatican Council II supports these documents when Feeneyism is affirmed.Joseph Shaw's position is not clear.

 19.The magisterium ( teaching authority )  of the Church , according to the text of Church documents  and the past Magisterium( and not the persons in the contemporary magisterium in 2015, the ecclesiastical hierarchy ) is still the same before and after Vatican Council II ?
Lionel: Yes.
Lionel: Yes this is true with Feeneyism. With the use of Cushingism, however,  the ecclesiatical hierarchy interprets Vatican Council II as a break with the old ecclesiology, a rupture with the Magisterium before the Council of Trent.

20. You are a Feeneyite and not a Cushingite?
Lionel: I do not know about Dr. Joseph Shaw I though, am a Feeneyite.
Lionel: Dr. Joseph Shaw is not affirming Feeneyism. Neither is he saying every one needs to be 'a card carrying member of the Church' in the present times.Cushingites will not say every one needs to have his name in the Parish Baptism Register for salvation. Joseph Shaw indicates here that he is a Cushingite. He cannot say all Jews and other non Catholics need to formally enter the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid the fires of Hell.
-Lionel Andrades

New Martyrs of the Colosseum? A Final Word from Rome