Wednesday, March 15, 2017

Dr. Scott Hahn - Saturday Evening Session - Defending the Faith

I am saying all who are in Heaven are there with the baptism of water in the Catholic Church this is the teaching of the dogma as it was interpreted over the centuries.

You are saying that there are NO Catholics in Heaven that died by Baptism of Desire as a catechumen who died before he/she received the Sacrament of Baptism ? 
I am saying all who are in Heaven are there with the baptism of water in the Catholic Church this is the teaching of the dogma as it was interpreted over the centuries.
______________________

 How sad that truly is for them? There are NO non Catholics in Heaven.  
Yes.
_______________________


  I believe that everyone who  dies and is in Heaven since he/she died is in the Catholic Church.
If they are in Heaven they are Catholics in the Catholic Church.
_____________________

 The Church has NOT professed untold classes of Catholics for centuries?????  Those saints who died from Baptism of Blood or Desire are recognizable by the Catholic Church in naming them over centuries. What do you possibly mean that they are not recognizeable or that countless Saints have been named and discussed  over the centuries?
No one on earth could have seen or known in particular of someone who is in Heaven without the baptism of water.It is a physical issue.
_____________________

 Of  course there are Saints in Heaven who died by Baptism of  Blood and Desire who are KNOW to us. There are saints in Heaven who died through invincible Ignorance UNKNOWN to  us. They are all Catholics. There are only Catholics in Heaven.

O.K if they have the baptism of water in the Catholic Church, yes.-Lionel Andrades

A St. Emerentina of the past cannot be an exception to the dogma EENS in 2017. This is faulty reasoning.

George's answer:  BOTH baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire are both recognizable .
They are not! Name some case in 2016-2017.
____________


 Saints that ARE in Heaven and died in their condition of martyrdom and/or desire as a member of the Catholic Church. 
This is speculation and belief.There is no physically visible case in the past or present. Since human being cannot see these cases in Heaven if they existed and contradicted the dogma EENS.
This is irrational.
Neither can we say that any particular person on earth in 2017 will be saved with the baptism of desire or in invicible ignorance.
__________________


What we do not know and should no matter to us is whether they were baptized in Heaven or not.
If they are in Heaven they are baptised since the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) indicates this.
If a saint is in Heaven you or someone else can only speculate that it is without the baptism of water and with BOD. There is no general Church teaching on BOD for every one with no exception.
__________________________


 This should not matter nor should we care weather they were Baptized or not for they are in Heaven. They are BOTH Most visible to us all.
They are not.
Since you say they are there in Heaven non- baptised you contradict what you said a few weeks back about all who are in Heaven are Catholics with the baptism of water,
Since you say that they are in Heaven without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church, it is important that I mention that there are no physically visible persons in Heaven known to us,as such.No one can see ghosts or spirits in Heaven.At least not you and I.
________________________________________

You said:  " He does not state that all Christians need to formally enter the Church as members."

George's answer: No a Saint , whether they proclaimed Sainthood through Baptism of Blood of or Desire as described by countless Saints ( who ARE in HEAVEN ) throughout centuries have been professed by the Church as ALREADY in Heaven. ALL WERE CATHOLIC. and  most certainly Catholic.
You cannot say all Christians need to formally enter the Church for salvation and that in Heaven there are only Catholics and then suggest that the baptism of desire, represents someone known in Heaven without the baptism of water.This is contradictory. Your a Cushingite.You are also magisterial,I concede!
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You said: "  It was wrongly assumed that there were personally known, objectively seen cases of non Catholics saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
VIOLATES PRINCIPLE OF NON CONTRADICTION
This is irrational. It is an objective error .It violates the Principle of Non Contradiction and upon this error a new theology is created in Nostra Aetate. "
Absolutely false for Baptism of Blood and Desire Catholics who are in HEAVEN are most definitely Catholic.
We do not know of any such case we can only speculate or hope so.
Secondlly for the baptism of desire (without the baptism of water) to be an exception to the dogma EENS, it would have to be personally known in 2017. I have mentioned this numerous times before. A St. Emerentina of the past cannot be an exception to the dogma EENS in 2017. This is faulty reasoning.
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YOU said:
 "With a false premise making Vatican Council II(NA) a break with Tradition there was a non traditional conclusion, a new doctrine which was accepted in the Church. This was an innovation based on an irrationality and so it could not be the work of the Holy Spirit.
Cushing made an error, a human error."
 Absolutely correct for it was implied that another religion would serve as a basis to eternal life in Heaven.
Yes.He implies that there is salvation outside the Church, in another religion.
+++++++++++++++++++

AS far as Invincible Ignorance Saints are concerned they merit no comment from me, you or anyone other than the Catholic Church who has the right and duty  to comment on this on any issue. 
The Catholic Church did have the right, when you were a young man. There still was a magisterium.
Now there is no magisterium.
The present teachings on salvation, Vatican Council II etc are not that of the Holy Spirit.These teachings have human error and are a rupture with the magisterium of the past.
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We could not even envision what a person who IS invicincibly Ignorant truly go through..... Their moral certitude is up to God as to whether or not they would be great and HOLY Catholics. Not up to you, me or Father Feeney.
You mean there are no physically known cases in 2017? There are no personally known cases in 2017, similar to the baptism of desire?
-Lionel Andrades

Yes so who can say that they are physically seen in Heaven with BOD and I.I and without the baptism of water?

  Baptism of Blood,  Baptism of  Desire and Invincible Ignorance have been approved by the Catholic Church since  the beginning of the first century.  That is all I have to say on this subject.
 O.k so we do not know any one as such and no could have physically seen or known such a case in real  life. We agree here.

 Baptism of Blood,  Baptism of  Desire and Invincible Ignorance have been approved by the Catholic Church since  the beginning of the first century.  That is all I have to say on this subject.

You mean it was approved by popes and saints as a hypothetical case. A possibility known only to God. It was speculation. It was accepted in faith.
However they knew that there were no physically known cases.None in their time or in the past?

IT IS WRONG WHEN YOU SAY:
You have said that there are no physically known cases of BOD and I.I in the present times and there could not be any such case as such in the past.
You have agreed to this.
This is common sense.
So it would also be common sense for the popes and saints.
 Of course ALL proclaimed Saints of Baptism of Blood and Baptism od Desire who are PROFESSED Saints are KNOWN to us. That is why the Catholic Church set up such a proclimation. They are all Catholic.

You have said that there are no physically known cases of BOD and I.I in the present times and there could not be any such case as such in the past.
You have agreed to this.
This is common sense.
So it would also be common sense for the popes and saints.

Of course ALL proclaimed Saints of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire who are PROFESSED Saints are KNOWN to us.
All proclaimed saints are saints period. Who can say that they are saints without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?
That is why the Catholic Church set up such a proclimation. They are all Catholic.
Yes so who can say that they are physically seen in Heaven with BOD and I.I and without the baptism of water? -Lionel Andrades




You have said that there is no one in the past who can physically see or know a BOD case.So if there is no known case in the past or the future where is the exception to the dogma EENS?


There are lots of Saints that are professed to die from BOB and BOD in previous generations that are known to both of us.
They are not known personally to me.Neither are they known personally and physically to you.

You have said that there is no one in the past who can physically see or know a BOD case.
So if there is no known case in the past or the future where is the exception to the dogma EENS?

So we do not know of any such case and we cannot know.
So we agree that there are no concrete cases of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance with or without the baptism of water.
This is all that I want to say.

So we do not know of any such case and we cannot know.We physically do not know of any such case and no one could have known as such in the past?
Physically we could not have seen any such case this year and no one could have done so in the past?

We agree that there are no concrete cases of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance with or without the baptism of water.None this year.No physically known cases. No one in the past could have physically seen or known a baptism of desire case.
There are none this year and none could have been physically and personally known in the past?
-Lionel Andrades

And if someone says she is in Heaven without the baptism of water then who is this person in the Church who has said this? Who gave him permission? Is he recognised by the Church?

Please do not mix what I say with what you think Fr. Leonard Feeney said or what I think he said.

The point I want to make is that you have said that in 2017 we do not know and cannot know of any BOD or I.I case.
We also agree that in the past no one could possibly know of any such case.

So when the saints and popes mentioned BOD and I.I to whom were they referring to?
You are  totally incorrect about Baptism of Desire. As mentioned below Saint Felicitas was a catechumen who was arrested with St Perpetua.as a SAINT who achieved SANCTITY through Desire.

O.K She received sanctity with Desire, however it was followed with the baptism of water.
It is not specified that the desire excludes the baptism of water.
While the the dogma in the Church says all need the baptism of water in the Catholic Church for salvation.

Agreed?
And if someone says she is in Heaven without the baptism of water then who is this person in the Church who has said this? Who gave him permission? Is he recognised by the Church?
-Lionel Andrades

NO ONE ON EARTH can say whether any/all Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or Invincible Ignorance cases have been baptized with water and this certainly includes you and I.

NO ONE ON EARTH can say whether any/all Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or Invincible Ignorance have been baptized with water and this certainly includes you and I.
  No one on earth knows.
You have just said :NO ONE ON EARTH can say whether any/all Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or Invincible Ignorance cases have been baptized with water and this certainly includes you and I.

What we do know is that many have left this earth without Baptism of water and are in Heaven because they are proclaimed by the Church as being in heaven as saints.
You have just said :NO ONE ON EARTH can say whether any/all Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or Invincible Ignorance cases  have been baptized with water and this certainly includes you and I.

 Were they baptized with water AFTER they died. We do not KNOW the answer. This issue is where Father Feeney made his mistake.

You have just said :NO ONE ON EARTH can say whether any/all Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire or Invincible Ignorance cases  have been baptized with water and this certainly includes you and I.
-Lionel Andrades

All proclaimed saints are saints period. Who can say that they are saints without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?

You have said that there are no physically known cases of baptism of desire (BOD) and invincible ignorance (I.I) in the present times and there could not be any such case as such in the past.
You have agreed to this.
This is common sense.
So it would also be common sense for the popes and saints.
Of course ALL proclaimed Saints of Baptism of Blood and Baptism od Desire who are PROFESSED Saints are KNOWN to us.
All proclaimed saints are saints period. Who can say that they are saints without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?
That is why the Catholic Church set up such a proclimation. They are all Catholic.
Yes so who can say that they are physically seen in Heaven with BOD and I.I and without the baptism of water?
-Lionel Andrades

Can you interpret Vatican Council II, EENS, BOD and I.I with Cushingism and Feeneyism?

The Emperor Valentinian II was on the way to Milan to be baptized when he
was assassinated; St. Ambrose said of him that his desire had been the
means of his cleansing.
So
Can you interpret Vatican Council II, EENS, BOD and I.I with Cushingism or Feeneyism? 
Do you understand what I am trying to get at?
When there are no physical cases of BOD and I.I then it is Feeneyism.
When it is assumed that there are physically known cases in the past or future  of BOD and I.I then it is Cushingism.
So when St. Thomas Aquinas mentioned the man in the forest in ignorance who would be saved when God would send a preacher to him is this case of Feeneyism or Cushingism for you? Why?
-Lionel Andrades

There are no physically visible cases of BOD and I.I in the present times and in the past.

So you see Lionel, Both BOB and BOD are CATHOLICS who are
 designated by the Catholics as Catholics by Catholics before they
 die. and Invincible Ignorance is left TOTALLY in the hands of God,
 like in BEFORE the Catholic Church spread its message throughout
 he world and those who for whatever reason cannot know the word
 of God on Salvation totally UNKNOWN to us mortals on earth.
Lionel:
O.K I agree with you.

So you see Lionel, Both BOB and BOD are CATHOLICS who are 
designated by the Catholics as Catholics by Catholics before they
 die. and Invincible Ignorance is left TOTALLY in the hands of God,
 like in BEFORE the Catholic Church spread its message throughout
 he world and those who for whatever reason cannot know the word 
of God on Salvation totally UNKNOWN to us mortals on earth.
We agreed that there are no physically visible cases 
of BOD and I.I in the present times and in the past.
So the reference above are to hypothetical cases.
 People not personally known ?

So would you agree that there are only invisible BOD
 and I.I cases?
Similarly would you agree that that LG 16 ( invincible
 ignorance) and LG 14( Catechumen who desires the 
baptism of water and dies before receiving it) refers
to invisible for us cases.
-Lionel Andrades

So would you agree that there are only invisible BOD and I.I cases?

People not personally known ? There certainly are cases where the baptism of desire (BOD) that are known to us!
Lionel:
They are known to you in faith. They are known to you as a hypothesis.However they are not known to you or any one else in real life. Personally no one saw or met them in Heaven or on earth.
Someone proposed their names as saints saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.But physically no one could have seen them.In this sense you do not know any BOD or I.I case and neither do I or any one else.
 So would you agree that there are only invisible BOD and I.I cases? 
Similarly would you agree that that LG 16 ( invincible ignorance)and LG 14( Catechumen who desires the baptism of water and dies before receiving it) refer to invisible for us cases

+++++++++++++++++++++=====

 Of course  BOD are known to us and the Catechumens who all died are unknown to us if they reached Heaven but for certain some  did reach purgatory or Heaven directly over over 2000 years but we do not know their names.
I repeat

They are known to you in faith. They are known to you as a hypothesis.However they are not known to you or any one else in real life. Personally no one saw or met them in Heaven or on earth.
Someone proposed their names as saints saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.But physically no one could have seen them.In this sense you do not know any BOD or I.I case and neither do I or any one else.-Lionel Andrades

Who is this ' Church' who saw a speculative case being actually concrete in real life and then left it for all of to believe in ? No one!

I have over 7 of Father Fenney's books and have met him in person in 1971. He was always against anyone being saved by BOB, BOD or Invincible Ignorance which is very  unfortunate. I have given examples of BOD to you many times in the past. The Catholic Church would not have referred to it if it were not possible for centuries. We as Catholics are told only to suggest, recommend and live our lives as only No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church is the means of salvation open to us but certanily not available to God who understands the will of ALL people in all times and circumstances.

He was always against anyone being saved by BOB, BOD or Invincible Ignorance which is very  unfortunate.
This confirms what I have been saying.Though my approach to the issue is different.
I keep saying that there are no physically known cases of BOD or I.I in the past or present.So how can any one claim that someone was saved as such.
Who is this ' Church' who  saw a speculative case being actually concrete in real life and then left it for all of to believe in ? No one!
-Lionel Andrades

YES BUT THIS IS A REFERENCE TO AN INVISIBLE CASE. IS IT A VISIBLE CASE FOR YOU. SO IT IS RELEVANT TO EENS FOR YOU?

INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.
1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
YES BUT THIS IS A REFERENCE TO AN INVISIBLE CASE. IS IT A VISIBLE CASE FOR YOU.
SO IT IS RELEVANT TO EENS FOR YOU?
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1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
YES BUT THIS IS A REFERENCE TO AN INVISIBLE CASE. IS IT A VISIBLE CASE FOR YOU.
SO IT IS RELEVANT TO EENS FOR YOU?
) It is, then, a curse, but not a blessing or a means of salvation. 
YES BUT THIS IS A REFERENCE TO AN INVISIBLE CASE. IS IT A VISIBLE CASE FOR YOU.
SO IT IS RELEVANT TO EENS FOR YOU?
But if we say that inculpable ignorance cannot save a man, we thereby do not say that invincible ignorance damns a man. Far from it. To say, invincible ignorance is no means of salvation, is one thing; and to say, invincible ignorance is the cause of damnation, is another. To maintain the latter would be wrong, for inculpable ignorance of the fundamental principles of faith excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy; because such invincible ignorance, being only a simple involuntary privation, is no sin.

Hence Pius IX said “that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man, will, in His infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault.”7
YES BUT THIS IS A REFERENCE TO AN INVISIBLE CASE. IS IT A VISIBLE CASE FOR YOU.
SO IT IS RELEVANT TO EENS FOR YOU?

Sub-titles and Footnotes added by Catholic Family News

You are still mentioning BOD and I.I with reference to EENS?

 We  agree that Salvation outside the Catholic Church is not a position
 that can be engaged upon  any Catholic. We only know of any 
circumstances whereby a person has been saved by BOB OR BOD
 when it is professed by the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church
 has taught for numerous centuries without  doubt that there have 
been Saints of BOB and BOD.. We do not know where and when
 God has admitted a person to Purgatory/Heaven by the will of God
 whether it be by BOB, BOD or II other than  all Saints that have
 been professed by the Catholic Church for 20 plus centuries.. It is
 the Catholic Church teaching which was disagreed with by yourself 
and Father Feeney that ANYONE could be saved by BOB< BOD< or
 II. Although you openly disagree with Father Feeney on BOB. This
 is nonsense and a direct attack on God for all times and 
circumstances that we could not even perceive or know about during
 the history of he Catholic Church and God Himself.  The letter of 
1949 did great damage in mentioning both in the same letter which
 was interpreted by most to mean that WE could project those that 
could be saved by BOB< BOD or II which is nonsense. II belongs 
solely to God for salvation whereas there are known cases of BOB
 and  BOD as professed as Saints by the Catholic Church as 
CATHOLICS. A catechist who died before they received Baptism 
by water are certainily in Heaven/Purgatory/Hell UNKNOWN to 
us but certanilly  a teaching of the Catholic Church.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lionel:
I am coming to this issue from a completely different angle.
I am saying like you that there are no known cases of a non 
Catholic saved in invincible ignorance and without the 
baptism of water.That's all.
You have agreed that there are no such cases in the past
 or present which can be seen or known personally.
So you can speculate as much as you want and affirm
 being saved in invincible ignorance. I will not object.
But do not mention it with reference to EENS.
Since for I.I to be relevant to EENS it must exist. It must
 exist in our reality.There is no such case you have said.



You are still mentioning BOD and I.I with reference to EENS?
-Lionel Andrades

So the Catholic Church after 1949 contradicts the Catholic Church before 1949.

No not agreed!  If something is  a possibility, it does not mean that I saw it or witnessed it.
Lionel:
True but you cannot apply this rule to the baptism of desire etc.Since if the baptism of desire is a possibility it does not mean that for any one on earth it is a reality.
If you say that there is a possibility that it exists it does not mean that it could ever exist and be known to us.
In this way this issue is different.
__________________________


 It simply means can happen.
Lionel:
But for you it is relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). So it means there was a concrete case which was an exception to EENS at some time.
____________________

 This comment pertains to any subject. It is taught by the Catholic Church so I will not find any fault in the teaching.
Before the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 there were statement by popes and saints, when asked about the baptism of desire(BOD) and invincible ignorance(I.I), and they  refered to a hypothetical case. It could not be any thing else.BOD and I.I are always hypothetical.
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 however assumed BOD and I.I were exceptions to EENS Feeneyite. So now it was a concrete case.
So we have the magisterium before 1949 seeing BOD and I.I as being invisible on earth and we have the Church after 1949 seeing BOD and I.I as being visible exceptions to EENS.
_____________________


  If it were not taught by the Catholic Church then and only then would your comment make  any sense at all.
So the Catholic Church after 1949 contradicts the Catholic Church before 1949.

Now there can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one with the irrational premise and the other without it.
-Lionel Andrades