Sunday, February 22, 2015

What I have been writing here is known to many Catholics.I am not the first one to discuss it.

I have been working hard on this blog so that before the BIG CRUNCH comes Catholics will know the following.
1.Being saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are acceptable and do not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
2.Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani did not know of anyone saved outside the Catholic Church, so he could not infer that God is not limited to the Sacraments and that there was salvation outside the Catholic Church.
3.Fr.Leonard Feeney said that there is no salvation outside the Church.The baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are not cases  of being saved outside the Church. There are no such cases known to us. So he was correct.
4.Since we cannot humanly know of any one saved outside the visible limits of the Catholic Church  in 2015 ( without faith and baptism), there cannot be in Vatican Council II, any exception to the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.There are no exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 which says all need faith and  baptism for salvation.
5.So a Catholic can affirm the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus and it would be magisterial, according to the texts of Vatican Council II.It would be a rational and traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II without the Marchetti premise.
6.The Magisterium, the Society of St.Pius X, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary ( St.Benedict Centers,USA) and traditionalists in general, are using the Marchetti irrationality, the false premise in the interpretation of Vatican Council II.
7.Vatican Council II can be interpreted in two ways, with or without the irrational premise.
1) LG 16,NA 2,UR 3 etc.can refer to salvation without the baptism of water and in cases explicit, objective and personally known in 2015.So they are explicit exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in 2015 for salvation.This was the position of Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits of Boston.They were using the reasoning of Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani.
2)These cases are known only to God and so are invisible for us in 2015.So they are irrelevant to the dogma.
So traditionalists can choose from the two interpretations.
8) Catholics can affirm Vatican Council II ( not interpreted with the premise) and also the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It does not violate the Principle of Non Contradiction.
Vatican Council II ( interpreted with the premise) would contradict the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Feeneyite, traditional version.
9)The SSPX General Chapter Statement contradicts the SSPX USA's Angelus  Press.The General Chapter affirmed extra ecclesiam nulla salus with no exceptions.While Fr.Francois Laisney's Is Feeneyism Catholic (Angelus Press) says there are exceptions.the book is based on Marchetti's error and is being sold by the SSPX.
10)The SSPX in general accepts the irrational inference in the Letter of the Holy Office i.e the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma, since these cases are explicit. They would have to be explicit to be exceptions.While it rejects the same irrational inference in Vatican Council II.
Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance) is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. In other words it refers to known exceptions to the dogma. This cannot be accepted by the SSSPX: So they reject Vatican Council II and yet they accept the Marchetti Letter.
11) When the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments it is based on Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani's assuming that there is known salvation outside the Catholic Church.The dogma tells us that God has chosen to limit salvation to the Catholic Church.

Whatever I have writing on this issue over the last four or five years is usually a presentation or re-presentation of these points.My own thinking has been honed in, clarified and made concrete by writing on this blog.
What I have been writing here is known to many Catholics.I am not the first one to discuss it.I believe other Catholics also knew about all this.
I am a simple lay man with no attachments and so at this point of time,I was able to express myself  unlike informed bishops, priests and nuns, who know exactly what I am saying and agree with me -  but choose to remain silent in obedience to their superiors.
I have been working actively on this issue since 1997-1998 when I began theological studies as a lay student at a liberal Catholic seminary.The loose ends are now tied, and in a sense, my work is over.
It is now for those lay Catholics who understand what I have said , to take it up and carry on.
All this is the teaching of the magisterium, I repeat, according to magisterial documents, not interpreted with an irrational premise.
Whenever I say that the magisterium made a mistake I am referring to their use of the premise to interpret magisterial documents especially Vatican Council II.
-Lionel Andrades

Gratitudine - Gen Verde

Gratitudine - Gen Verde

Solo Grazie - Figli del Divino Amore

There are no known exceptions and cannot be any known exception for us, to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.

Close Lionel but you are not quite there yet because you are still in obvious contradiction with yourself.

When you say: " If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma " 
 Since you and others suggest that a person can be saved without the baptism of water so I say that this case would not be exception to the dogma since it is not defacto known to us in 2015. This is a hypothethical case for you. This hypothetical case for me would include the baptism of water.

 you are absolutely correct and then you immediately turn around and contradict yourself when you say: " 
 Yes but then you will say that God is not limited to the Sacraments. Then once again I would have to say that hypothetical cases, with or without the baptism of water, are not exceptions to the dogma. We do not know of any one saved outside the Church, who did not need the baptism of water and is in Heaven this year.

The experiences of the saints confirm the dogmatic teaching.St. Francis Xavier mentions persons who returned back to the earth after being physically dead, only to be baptised with water.So this is the way God has chosen for all to be saved- the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
   The two statements are in complete contradiction with each other. The experience of the Saints do not confirm that God MUST baptize with water for as you say correctly "if God chose to save a person without the sacraments it would be known to God only"  You can not have it both ways.
I keeping saying if  God chose to save a person without the Sacraments, only to make the point, that his hypothetical case cannot be an explicit exception to the dogma.I personally believe all need the baptism of water for salvation since this was the dogmatic teaching.So Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani and Cardinal Ratzinger made an objective error.The magisterium made a factual error.The magisterium assumed that people in Heaven are excptions on earth to the dogma . So there was salvation outside the Church for them. How can the dead be visible exceptions in 2015 to the strict interpretation of the dogma? 

  We can not even imagine the billions of conditions over the last 2000 years that have presented themselves to God at each particular judgement.
However we cannot speculate, even though the desire is strong. We cannot assume that someone in particular will go to Heaven without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

  In my weekly visits to the hospital I come into contact with all kinds of situations that give reason to appreciate and leave ludgement  to God. For example I visited a patient with brain cancer about to die who had no religious beliefs and I explained the necessity and beauty of the catholic Church and the necessity for salvation to become Catholic. Although he did not visibly convert to the Catholic Church as far as I know how could we ever know that in his heart and with perfect sorrow he did not pray to God to help him as he was dying?. Neither you nor I could possibly know if this did or did not happen. 
Exactly. Neither can you say anything and we know the dogmatic teaching.
You would say if he did  make this prayer to God and God welcomed him into Heaven as a Catholic(no exceptions) then you would demand that God had him baptized with water. 
In this particular person's case we cannot say anything.
I mentioned that there were saints who said God sent people back only to be baptised with water. God did not send these people straight to Hell as he would do otherwise.Any way for us this is still a hypothethical case. It was a defacto, explicit case for the saints.

The Church teaches that we defer this to God with NO reservations, restrictions or council. 
In this individual case I would not judge. Howevetr if there was someone who died as a non Catholic , in general, he is on the way to Hell. If God sends the person back to be baptised, or sends a preacher to him- this is not visible to others, it would be known only to God. In general, God has bound salvation to the Sacraments and there are known exceptions for us, there cannot be any known exception to this teaching for us.

You must get beyond your position and then what you have undertaken as your life
 struggle in your intense love of our Catholic faith will take root and you will be instrumental in the fight to restore our Catholic Faith.

My posiion is that of the Catholic Church according to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus of Errors and  Vatican Council II interpreted without the irrational premise. I am affirming the text of Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14). The Church's teaching on salvation, before and after Vatican Council II ,is the same for me. There are no known exceptions and cannot be any known exception for us, to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.

   We the Church Millitant are commanded and completely embrace the truth that all Catholics must teach to ALL that that they must enter, stay or return to  the Catholic Church and that they must have Baptism by water in order to be saved.  

 Even if we thought God forbid, that someone, anyone could even remotely be saved by Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood or Invincible Ignorance we must tell  them that they must join the Catholic Church and have baptism by water in order to be saved for that----------------- is what Jesus commanded us to do.
Yes! Agreed.
-Lionel Andrades

The dogma says all need the baptism of water for salvation. Jesus says the same in John 3:5. While you do not know of any exceptions