Tuesday, April 14, 2015

Joseph Shaw is not going to tell Muslims at Oxford that the Chuch says all need to formally enter the Church to avoid Hell. Neither is Gavin D'Costa going to say this in Bristol.

The deception has to be approved by the local ordinary and only then they are allowed to teach theology in Britain.

John Lamont, Thomas Pink and Joseph Shaw would lose their mandatum to teach theology if they said there are no physically known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus I mentioned in a previous blog.1
This could also apply to Gavin D'Costa.He has to project factually incorrect information, false reasoning and a non traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II to be approved by the bishop in the diocese of Clifton or the cardinal-archbishop of Westminister.
The deception has to be approved by the local ordinary and only then they are allowed to teach theology in Britain.
If they spoke the truth they would be saying that Vatican Council II does not contradict the centuries old interpretation on outside the Church there is no salvation.Since there cannot be any exception to the dogma.Invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions.
In other words there is no known salvation outside the Church in 2015.So all need to formally convert in the present times to avoid Hell.We do not know any one saved with the baptism of desire this year.Instead these Catholic professors of theology, infer that there is salvation outside the Church and this salvation is defacto known to us in the present times.So there are exceptions in Vatican Council II to the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is their political Left position.
This error is also wrongly suggested in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1257), in two theological papers of the International Theological Commission and in Church documents like Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Missio etc.
So John Lamont (Australia), Thomas Pink, Joseph Shaw and Gavin D'Costa (England) are faking it to keep their teaching jobs.They have compromised with the Truth.
They are teaching irrational doctrine but this is accepted by the Catholic bishops and the Vatican Curia.
It is with this irrational theology that the Vatican wants the SSPX, Franciscans of the Immaculate and CMRI to interpret Vatican Council II.So reconciliation in the Church has been blocked.Since the doctrine approved by the Vatican is supported by irrational observations.Observations like physically being able to see people in Heaven.
Since 1949 the mandatum is given at Catholic universities to professors who allege they can physically see people in Heaven, in the present times, saved without the baptism of water.So they infer that there is salvation outside the Church and the dogma has been contradicted since these cases are allegedly personally known to them to become exceptions.
So now Joseph Shaw for example is not going to tell Muslims at Oxford that the Chuch teaches in its magisterial documents (Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) etc) that all need to formally enter the Church to avoid Hell. Neither is Gavin D'Costa going to say this in Bristol.-Lionel Andrades

Joseph Shaw would not say that all need to formally enter the Church for salvation in Britain. This would be the old ecclesiology.Instead he would say that there are exceptions. This is the new ecclesiology.

FIUV 'fundamentalist'?
Here's another question. Mgr Loftus attributes the view that the EF represents a different 'ecclesiology' from the OF to Cardinal Benelli back in 1976; he gives no source for the quotation, but it is a familiar enough idea, if a vague one: I've never seen it properly explained. What Loftus is perhaps unable to appreciate is how dangerous this argument is for supporters of the reformed Mass. For the claim amounts to saying that the 1970 introduced an ecclesiology - a theology of the Church - which is incompatible with the one which had been taught by the Church, through the liturgy and elsewhere, from time immemorial. But the immemorial teaching of the Church can't be wrong, so the claim amounts to saying that the reformed Mass teaches error. Is that what Loftus really thinks? Are other progressives comfortable with that idea?-Dr.Joseph Shaw, Professor of theology and philosophy University of Oxford, U.K
Lionel:
Mgr Loftus attributes the view that the Extra ordinary Form of the Mass, the Tridentine Latin Mass, represents a different 'ecclesiology' from the Mass in 1976. Yes! Since the ecclesiology comes from the Marchetti-Cushing error.This error was not there in the Church before 1949. So it was not there with the Old Mass.
After 1949 there was no more an exclusivist ecclesiology. Since it was assumed that there was salvation outside the Church.It was wrongly assumed that being saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance were explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It was inferred that these cases now in Heaven were visible and known on earth ! So it was concluded that all do not need to enter the Church for salvation.
For the claim amounts to saying that the 1970 introduced an ecclesiology - a theology of the Church - which is incompatible with the one which had been taught by the Church, through the liturgy and elsewhere, from time immemorial.- Dr.Joseph Shaw
Lionel:
Loftus is correct.The ecclesiology with the irrational premise and inference is the new theology. The new theology is based on the irrational premise and inference.It is accepted in the  contemporary Catholic Church that there is no more an exclusivist ecclesiology. This is confirmed in one of the theological papers of the International Theological Commission.It   was approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J, the present Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF)  was the then President of the ITC, as Fr.Luis Ladaria, a professor at the Pontifical Gregorian University.It is this  irrational ecclesiology which the CDF wants the SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculater to accept.
IMG_2635 
But the immemorial teaching of the Church can't be wrong, so the claim amounts to saying that the reformed Mass teaches error.-  Dr.Joseph Shaw
Lionel:
No the immemorial teaching of the Church can't be wrong and is not wrong but the ecclesiology after 1949 uses an irrational proposition, to change the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Catholic priests in Rome who offer the Extraordinary Form also affirm the new ecclesiology.They say that the baptism of desire is an exception to the Feeneyite version of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church.Do they personally know of any such case ? They say No. Was there any such case mentioned in a Church Document before 1949. The answer is no.
The issue is related to doctrine and theology and not the Mass. This is the new ecclesiology of Archbishop McMahon, the then bishop of Northampton, shown on the blog.
_____________________________
Is that what Loftus really thinks? Are other progressives comfortable with that idea?-  Dr.Joseph Shaw
Lionel:
Pope Francis has said that the EF should not be ideological.
The Vatican allows the Tridentine Rite Mass to be offered but without the exclusivist ecclesiology of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
It is this new ecclesiology which Prof. Joseph Shaw teaches at Oxford and which has been accepted by the FIUV.Joseph Shaw  would not say that all Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics need to formally enter the Church for salvation in Britain. This would be the old ecclesiology.
Instead he would say that there are exceptions. This is the new ecclesiology.
-Lionel Andrades
 
 
 
 

Why is the FBI whitewashing the Saudi connection to 9/11?

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http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/04/why-is-the-fbi-whitewashing-the-saudi-connection-to-911

Islamic State beheads “blasphemer” with meat cleaver

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http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/04/islamic-state-beheads-blasphemer-with-meat-cleaver

University of Bristol Islamic Society, Bristol Muslim Cultural Society note this is an irrational and non professional interpretation of the Catholic Faith by Prof. Gavin D'Costa. It is poor scholarship


On the website of the University of Bristol,U.K  there is a video of Prof. D'Costa saying "People are not damned if they are not Catholics" (5:09) The same video has been made available on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.Gavin's message is false and is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
This is a false image of the Catholic Church he would have presented to Dr Mustafa Baig, Research Fellow, Institute of Arabic and Islamic Studies, University of Exeter , who participated in an event on Feb10,2015 at the University of Bristol .
This is also the false image he presents to the University of Bristol Islamic Society and the Bristol Muslim Cultural Society and Muslims who study at the university.
They do not know that:
1.According to Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also says all need to enter the Church 'as through a door', it also says the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water (CCC 1257).The video does not state this (1).
2.Muslims are not informed that there is no Church text, in Vatican Council II or any other magisterial document, which states there are known exceptions, in the present times, to the Ad Gentes 7 teaching .All need faith and baptism.The video does not state this.
3.Gavin D'Costa does not know any one personally who does not need to enter the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism' to avoid Hell.There is no such case in Britain.The video does not state this.
4.The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says all need to be formal members of the Church. Gavin D'Costa does not mention this.He contradicts Vatican Council II and a defined dogma and personally does not know of any exceptions.Yet he says all do not need to convert.
As a professor of theology he uses these irrational three points to reject the traditional and only rational interpretation of the Catholic Church.This is a common error among Catholics in Britain. 



 
1. The physically dead for us, who are now saved in Heaven in invincible ignorance or with the baptism of desire are considered exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.They are not known or visible to us on April 14,2015.Yet salvation in Heaven is objectively seen on earth for D'costa and others, to postulate these cases as living exceptions to the dogma. Vatican Council II (LG 16,LG 8,UR 3, NA 2 etc ) cannot refer to exceptions since these cases would only be known to God.Yet they are exceptions for D'Costa and other Catholics. AMuslim scholar would agree that there cannot be exceptions to the dogma for us humans.He would contradict D'Costa's reasoning.
2. Similarly someone who allegedly died centuries back without the baptism of water would not be an explicit exception to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church today, April 14,2015.A hypothetical case cannot be a defacto exception today.A theoretical case of the past cannot be objectively seen today.So D'Costa cannot consider a case of the past as being a defacto case and an exception in the present times.Yet he does. This would be philosophical reasoning gone wrong.Yet this is being done at the University of Bristol's Department of Religion and Theology.
3.Similarly the University of Bristol faculty would not personally know of someone today April 14, 2015 who would be saved in future, without faith and baptism and so would not need to be a formal member of the Catholic Church, to avoid Hell as the dogma teaches.They cannot posit someone living today in Britain as being an exception to Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism) and Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441, which says outside the Church there is no salvation (extra ecclesiam nulla salus).Yet this irrationality is maintained by the Faculty in this department.
Students in a seminarAs a Catholic lay man I reject the irrationality in these three points.They are promoted by the University of Bristol and Prof. Gavin D'Costa even after they have been informed. I do not interpret Catholic Church documents using this irrationality, which I refer to as Cushingism.The error comes from a mistake Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani made in 1949 in the Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston. The error was accepted and implemented in the Catholic Church by Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Archbishop of Botson.
sermon
Gavin D'Costa as a professor , even after being informed, uses this Marcheti-Cushing error to interpret Vatican Council. This is unethical.
He is not willing to affirm the traditional rigorist interpretation of the dogma and is changing the Church's teaching with an irrational premise and inference.
His irrational premise is: Catholics in general see the dead now saved in Heaven with 'seeds of the Word'(AG 11) or 'that ray of that Truth'(NA 2).
His irrational inference then is "People are not damned if they are not Catholics" .Everyone does not need to formally enter the Catholic Church for salvation since there are known exceptions.
His non traditional conclusion then is that Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Vatican Council II would also contradict itself for him i.e Ad Gentes 7 would be contradicted by NA 2 ( saved with a ray of the Truth and allegedly without the baptism of water).NA 2 refers to a case of someone saved outside the Church, i.e without faith and baptism. 
 
How can there be exceptions to the dogma on salvation unless he is implying in his premise, that we Catholics can see persons in Heaven and on earth today who are exceptions.How can people in Heaven be exceptions on earth? 
 
The University of Bristol Islamic Society and the Bristol Muslim Cultural Society must note that this is an irrational and non professional interpretation of the Catholic Faith by Prof. Gavin D'Costa. It is poor scholarship.
-Lionel Andrades

1.
Video

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/religion/study/

Gavin D'Costa presents an irrational view of the Catholic Faith to the Islamic Society of the University of Bristol and visiting Muslim professors
 Muslim professors must know exactly what are the teachings of the Catholic Church about Islam and other religions, before and after Vatican Council II