Thursday, September 25, 2014

The Desert

Unfurl the Catholic Banner! Open Letter To SSPX Priests Re: Rome Meeting

Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position

David Schütz:
The Second Vatican Council produced two landmark documents on the relationship of the Catholic Church to those outside her communion: Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism) andNostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions).
Lionel:
None of the two documents state that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism.
David Schütz:
Without doubt, the Second Vatican Council developed a more nuanced way in which this dogma was to be interpreted. The two documents, Unitatis Redintegratio and Nostra Aetate,together with the Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) and the Declaration on Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanae), were principally responsible for this change.
Lionel:
I repeat none of them state that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism.
David Schütz:
By quoting the Council document Lumen Gentium, the Catechism assures us that the dogma still stands, but significantly nuanced:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].
Lionel:
It is not nuanced unless you assume that those who ' know' and yet do not enter and are damned and those who are in ignorance and are saved, are visible to us  in 2014.If they are not visible in the flesh cases then this passage does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus,on 'the necessity of faith and Baptism'. Vatican Council II is Feeneyite here (LG 14).
David Schütz:
That final sentence is, of course, the clincher, but it is important that we appreciate what the Council declared in Lumen Gentium.
Lionel:
The final sentence Schutz he is referring to is 'Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].' If Vatican Council II infers that the exceptions are visible to us and so all do not need to enter the Church formally but only those who know, then the Council would have made an objective mistake.The text though does not directly state this. It has to be inferred wrongly.
One can still interpret it as referring to hypothetical cases, known only to God.
 David Schütz:
It affirmed:
  • That Christ is unique and the only mediator and way of salvation
  • That the Church is necessary for salvation (Lionel:Yes ,formal entry into the Church is necessary for salvation)
  • That faith and baptism are both necessary for salvation (Lionel: Here is the dogma affirmed with no 'developments')
  • That these three statements are connected because the Church is the Body of Christ, and baptism is the means of entry into the Church.
David Schütz:
Nevertheless, rather than consigning all those outside the Church to wholesale damnation, the Council Fathers declared that only those who are aware of the necessity of the Church yet still refuse to enter or remain in it “could not be saved”.
Lionel:
'Those who are aware of the necessity of the Church and yet still refuse to enter or remain in it ' are hypothetical cases in 2014 . They are not known to us personally.So they are not relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are not exceptions to all needing 'faith and Baptism'(AG 7) for salvation in 2014. If Schutz considers them exceptions then he is inferring that these cases now in Heaven are personally visible to us on earth- for them to be exceptions. The dead are exceptions!
David Schütz:
The Catechism attempts to “reformulate positively” the teaching extra ecclesiam, saying that “it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC §846). This essentially is the message of the Declaration Dominus Iesus (2000) as well.
Lionel:
That all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body does not in anyway contradict extra eccleesiam nulla salus which says all need to be formal members of the Church.It does not contradict the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.
David Schütz:
The Catechism also includes the following statement from Lumen Gentium:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation [LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872].
Lionel :
He inferr that these persons saved,'those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church' (LG 16) refer to seen in the flesh cases.So they are exceptions in 2014 to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus for him. So here there is a development of doctrine for him.
So his development of doctrine is based on an irrationality.We cannot see the dead on earth saved in invincible ignorance in 2014. So LG 16 does not contradict the Feeneyite interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.-Lionel Andrades
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How did Vatican II develop the teaching “No Salvation outside the Church”?

Presentation by David Schütz

Given at Thomas More Spring School,
“40 years of Vatican II”
Axedale November 27
The Second Vatican Council produced two landmark documents on the relationship of the Catholic Church to those outside her communion: Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism) and Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions).... 
Without doubt, the Second Vatican Council developed a more nuanced way in which this dogma was to be interpreted. The two documents, Unitatis Redintegratio and Nostra Aetate together with the Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) and the Declaration on Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanae), were principally responsible for this change...
By quoting the Council document Lumen Gentium, the Catechism assures us that the dogma still stands, but significantly nuanced:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].

Fr.Shane Johnson of the Legion of Christ does not answer the question on extra ecclesiam nulla salus

The Legion of Christ follow the error made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Cushingism is the norm in their religious formation.

Father, I'm very confused about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" which holds that outside of Baptism, there is no salvation. I know that many popes have infallibly pronounced this to be true (e.g. Boniface VIII, Eugene IV, Innocent III etc.), And it is in scripture, John 3: 5 but I've gotten heard many differing views on this matter in especially in more recent times. The idea that souls can be saved without Baptism is understandably comforting, but I just want to know the truth. Thank you. - Anonymous

Fr.Shane L.C:
It’s a theologically nuanced phrase that can very easily be misunderstood. There are a few groups in the Church that are upset with the Church’s self-understanding and make a lot of hay about it, so there’s a good deal of confusion.
The best and simplest guide is what the Catechism says:
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: 
(Lionel: So even when all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church, all still need to be formal members of the Church.Unless of course, Fr.Shane assumes that those who are saved with the baptism of desire etc( allegedly without the baptism of water) are personally known to us. So then they would be exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Chruch.
This is the error in the Legion of Christ formation and the Catechism is interpreted with this irrationality i.e the dead are visible and so all do not need to be formal members of the Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell).
"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.
Lionel: This is an affirmation of traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (Lumen Gentium 14)
Lionel: This is a reference to a theoretical, hypothtical case.It can be accepted as a possibility and would be known only to God. However the Legion of Christ priests assume that these are visible for us cases and so are exceptions to all needing faith and baptism for salvation in 2014. 
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." (Lumen Gentium 16)
Lionel: These cases (LG 16) are not known to us in 2014 so they are not exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are also not exceptions to LG 14 and AG 7 which say all need faith and baptism.
848 ”Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” (Ad Gentes 7)
Lionel: Those saved through no fault of their own are not known to us.They are not examples of salvation outside the Catholic Church in 2014. So they are not exceptions  to all needing to be formal members of the Church.
The Legion of Christ follow the error of the Letter of the Holy Office. Cushingism is the norm in their religious formation.-L.A
God bless you!
- Father Shane
 
 
I'm Father Shane Johnson, a Catholic priest  with the Legionaries of Christ and youth minister
at St. Peter's Parish in Yonkers, NY.I also contribute to Vocation Questions.
 

John Paul II we still love you- but you made a mistake!

Since Christ brings about salvation through his Mystical Body, which is the Church, the way of salvation is connected essentially with the Church. The axiom extra ecclesiam nulla salus"--"outside the Church there is no salvation"--stated by St. Cyprian (Epist. 73, 21; PL 1123 AB), belongs to the Christian tradition. It was included in the Fourth Lateran Council (DS 802), in the Bull Unam Sanctam of Boniface VIII (DS 870) and the Council of Florence (Decretum pro Jacobitis, DS 1351). The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14). For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded-Pope John Paul II
 
The axiom means that for those who are not ignorant of the fact that the Church has been established as necessary by God through Jesus Christ, there is an obligation to enter the Church and remain in her in order to attain salvation (cf. LG 14).
False. The axiom means 'Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.' -Lumen Gentium 14.
All are saved through the baptism of water in the Catholic Church-period. This was the teaching of the dogma cited (above) by Pope John Paul II.All are saved through formal entry into the Catholic Church.If there is any one saved without the baptism of water it is not known to us. So there cannot be any defacto exception to the dogmatic teaching.
Pope John Paul II infers that those who are saved in other religions through Jesus and the Church, are known to us, they are visible cases to all needing to formally enter the Church with no exceptions.
 
For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). -Pope John Paul II 
 
'those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation', and are saved, 'salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, in as much as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice' - and, these are hypothetical cases,theoretical constructs. They are not living exceptions to all needing 'faith and baptism' for salvation in 2014.So they are not exceptions to all needing to be 'external members of the Church'. We do not know of any case saved in 2014, as Pope John Paul II says, 'without membership in the Church'. We do not know of any defacto case, someone whom we could meet on the streets, who has been saved without external membership in the Church ,' but nonetheless always in relation to her'.
 
'It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her.'
 
 'those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her' and  are saved, are not people we know of personally. To assume that they are known cases, is Cushingism.
Here the distinction between implicit and explicit, subjective and objective, theoretical and in real life has been blurred and so there is confusion. This is the confusion which has come from Boston, in the Fr.Leonard  Feeney case.It was Cardinal Cushing who was irrational and in heresy.He gave us the visible baptism of desire concept and had  Fr.Leonard Feeney excommunicated. The Holy Office(CDF) approved it.
 
John Paul II we still love you- but you made a mistake!
-Lionel Andrades
 

Pope John Paul II's objective mistake

September 24, 2014
Pope John Paul II also fell before the objective error in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949? http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/pope-john-paul-ii-also-fell-before.html

Pope John Paul II's objective mistake

Rather, we must maintain that the way of salvation always passes through Christ, and therefore the Church and her missionaries have the task of making him known and loved in every time, place and culture. Apart from Christ "there is no salvation." -Pope John Paul II
 
The way of salvation always passes through Christ and the Catholic Church and there is no known salvation outside the Church, all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.
Pope John Paul II assumes those saved in other religions are defacto cases, known to us personally for them to be exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This was the mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which also assumed that those saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance were known to us, in other words these were visible cases. So they became exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney's traditional interpretation of the dogma.This was an objective mistake of the Archbishop and the Jesuits in Boston and the Holy Office of that time.This error is repeated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,l Vatican today .
Perhaps for this reason Pope John Paul II, like Cardinal Ratzinger, separates Jesus from the Church and does not call for formal membership for all without any exceptions.He says apart from Christ there is no salvation when the traditional teaching is apart from Jesus in the Catholic Church there is no salvation and all need to convert to avoid Hell.

However, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, the gift of salvation cannot be limited "to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church.-Pope John Paul II 

 Yes, the gift of salvation is  limited "to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church".
Salvation is offered to all but only those who respond, those who enter the Church formally can  benefit from Jesus Death and Resurrection.(Dominus Iesus 20).
-Lionel Andrades
 
 


September 24, 2014