Physically we cannot see people in the present times saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water said Fr.Marco Hausmann .I was talking with him about an hour back.
He agreed that these cases were only known to God.
So if any one infers that we can physically see these persons, that they are personally known in the present times, it would be wrong ? I asked . He said "Yes."
This is a very important issue.I was not discussing baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance in the usual theological way it is discussed. I was referring to literal cases.Literally we cannot see persons in Heaven. They are known only to God.
So literally, physically these cases cannot be known to us on earth.If any one implies that it is possible to know these cases, or that it is common, it would be a falsehood.
I was not talking theology. Fr.Marco gave a common sense answer.It was based on common knowledge that he said that we cannot see people in Heaven, physically.
This is an important issue in the Catholic Church since popes, cardinals, bishops and priests infer that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. To be an exception these cases would have to be known physically, personally in the present times.
The dogma says all need to be formal members of the Church for salvation, all need to convert into the Catholic Church with faith and baptism to avoid Hell and to go to Heaven.So if these cases are really exceptions to the dogma then it means that we know who they are in the present times.It means that they are personally known to us to be exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church to avoid Hell.
Only if they are personally known, if they exist in our reality can they be exceptions to all needing faith and baptism today to go to Heaven.
Fr.Marco Hausmann confirms that there is no such case in our reality. He is really saying the obvious. He may not know it but he will be contradicting the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The CDF has approved a mistake.
Here is Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J the present Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith implying that these cases are physically visible to us in the present times. I quote passages from the International Theological Commission's Christianity and the World Religions.The sub- heading is extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The then Fr.Luiz Ladaria S. J was the president of the ITC and approved this paper. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger over saw it.
International Theological Commission, Christianity and the World Religions
66. In his encyclical Mystici Corporis, Pius XII addresses the question, How are those who attain salvation outside visible communion with the Church related to her? He says that they are oriented to the mystical body of Christ by a yearning and desire of which they are not aware (DS 3821).1
Note he is writing this in the context of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.When 'those who attain salvation outside visible communion with the Church' are not physically visible to us how can they be related to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? When they are not personally known to us how can they be relevant to the dogma. What are the names and surnames of these people outside the Church who are saved ? Cardinal Ladaria assumes that these cases are known to us in the present times.For him they are relevant to the dogma.
The opposition of the American Jesuit Leonard Feeney, who insisted on the exclusivist interpretation of the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus , afforded the occasion for the letter of the Holy Office, dated 8 August ,1949, to the archbishop of Boston, which rejected Feeney s interpretation and clarified the teaching of Pius XII.
He confirms here that he assumes that these cases are physically visible and known to us. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made this objective mistake. It originally assumed that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were exceptions to the traditional Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.It had nothing to do with the dogma.
The letter distinguishes between the necessity of belonging to the Church for salvation (necessitas praecepti) and the necessity of the indispensable means of salvation (intrinseca necessitas); in relationship to the latter, the Church is a general help for salvation (DS 3867—69).
What has this to do with the Feeneyite version of the dogma? We do not know who these cases are says Fr.Marco.
Cardinal Ladaria makes the connection. So for him these cases would be visible in the present times, even though they are in Heaven?! This is an objective error.
In the case of invincible ignorance the implicit desire of belonging to the Church suffices; this desire will always be present when a man aspires to conform his will to that of God (DS 3870). But faith, in the sense of Hebrews 11:6, and love are always necessary with intrinsic necessity (DS 3872).
Again what has this to do with the dogma. These are hypothetical cases for us. Speculation. Well meaning and acceptable.
Cardinal Ladaria links it to the dogma. They would have to be physically seen in the present times to be relevant to the dogma. So how can these cases be exceptions to all formally needing to convert into the Church in the present times?How can hypothethical cases be de facto exceptions in the present times?
67. Vatican Council II makes its own the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
It depends on the interpretation. If one assumes there are visible apparitions then Vatican Council becomes a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the rest of Tradition.
If there are no apparitions seen in the present times, there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma.
But in using it the council explicitly directs itself to Catholics and limits its validity to those who know the necessity of the Church for salvation.
Apparition theology! It is assumed that those who are saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma, since these cases are personally known and physically visible to us humans.Then it is concluded that only those who 'know', i.e who are not in invincible ignorance are culpable.This is the new theology.
This is also a new doctrine on salvation based on being able to see people in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire, who are exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church.First there is the false premise and then there is the wrong inference.
The error of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 is incorporated in Vatican Council II. This is the new doctrine based on an irrationality that Cardinal Ladaria accepts and uses to refute the traditional interpretation of the dogma, which says all need to convert with no exceptions.
He is using the Marchetti-Cushing Addition to contradict an orthodox teaching on salvation.
The council holds that the affirmation is based on the necessity of faith and of baptism affirmed by Christ (LG 14).
The Council says all need faith and baptism for salvation. This is the orthodox passage in Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14-but he really has refuted it with the Marchetti-Cushing Addition i.e there are known exceptions.
For hims there are personally known cases in the present times who are saved without 'faith and baptism' and who are saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.This contradicts the necessity of faith and baptism affirmed by Christ.
In fact his error contradicts Lumen Gentium 14 and Ad Gentes 7,which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.
In this way the council aligned itself in continuity with the teaching of Pius XII, but emphasized more clearly the original parenthentical character of this expression.
Being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not known to us in the present times says Fr.Marco Hausmann. So they do not contradict the traditional Feeneyite version of the dogma.This was a mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 issued during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII.
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949, says there are exceptions to the dogma.It infers that these cases are physically visible and known to us to be exceptions.How can people in Heaven be exceptions on earth? This is an elementary error.
I did not speak with Fr.Marco Hausmann about the International Theological Commission error. I only asked him if a pope, cardinal, bishop or priest infers that physically there are known cases of persons now in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire, would it not be wrong.?He answered "Yes".
His answer indicates that the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and the International Theological Commission which cites the Letter, have made a factual mistake.
Fr.Marco Hausmann in Rome says there are no exceptions while the Vicariate is teaching young lay Catholics that there are exceptions
Fr.Marco Hausmann , Fr.P. Stefano Visintin OSB say there are no exceptions to the dogma, Cardinal Valliani's Vicariate says there are