The Second Vatican Council II when interpreted rationally only supports an ecumenism of return to the Catholic Church

 

Rome celebrates Christian unity week with joint prayers, and a woman preaching

Rome — January 25, 2024

by Christopher White, NCR.

Just next to the Basilica of Sts. Celso and Giuliano — a popular spot for the traditional Latin Mass here in the Eternal City — is Ponte Sant'Angelo Methodist Church, an English language congregation that proudly boasts, "Everyone is welcome, whatever their background."

Lionel: Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith and baptism for salvation. The Methodists do not have Catholic faith and they have not received their baptism in the Catholic Church. They are outside the Church (CCC 845,846), where the Catholic Church teaches today in Vatican Council II, 'there is no salvation'.

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And on Jan. 21, the church gave lived expression to that when Xavière Sr. Nathalie Becquart, a No. 2 official at the Vatican's synod office, preached during its Sunday service.

Lionel: She is the Vatican Consultant to the liberal Synods where they all interpret the Council irrationally and then justify their liberalism, with this dishonesty. If she interpreted the Council honestly and rationally she would be affirming the old theology of the 16^th century Roman Missal. It also says outside the Church there is no salvation.

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Becquart's invitation to preach was part of a flurry of events taking place here in Rome this week during the annual Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, an octave-long celebration that's been taking place for over a century.

As the Rev. Matthew Laferty, director of the Methodist Ecumenical Office in Rome, explained to me, the congregation has a custom of inviting a preacher or preachers from non-Methodist Christian traditions to preach on the Sunday of the annual week dedicated to praying for Christian unity.

That may be tradition, but there was a novelty about it, too.

"It certainly would have been the first time that a high-ranking Vatican official, who is a woman, preached at Ponte Sant'Angelo," observed Laferty. 

Lionel : The Reading from the Bible at Holy Mass in Italian today tells us that all must accept Jesus in the Catholic Church for salvation and that those who do not believe will be condemned.Jesus founded one Church, it was the Catholic Church. It's doctrines are the same from that time. It is apostolic.The numerous Christian denominations with different doctrines cannot say the same.

The Episcopalians help the poor but they support homosexual relations.

The Jehovah Witnesses do not believe Jesus and St. Michael the Archangel are different.

The Gospel of John tells us that Jesus told a group of Jews at that time that their father was the devil. He told others that if they did not believe in Him they would be condemned. This was also the message of St. Paul.

There are Protestant groups who beleive in Jesus and also support contraception.

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During her remarks, Becquart, a French sister, reflected on the Gospel passage of the good Samaritan.

Laferty recalled that Becquart reminded the congregation that the Gospel asks the question: "Who do we identify as our sister and brother?"

"In recognizing each other in our common baptism as Christians, and seeing the text from that perspective ... that leads us into the action of the good Samaritan," said Laferty, who said that Becquart's words served as a reminder that "the path of Christ is also the path of unity."

Lionel: Yes unity is important but it has to be based upon Vatican Council II and other Magisterial Documents interpreted rationally. The Catholic Church now has doctrinal unity with Vatican Council II interpreted rationally.Bequart and Pope Francis are not part of this unity, with their irrational interpretation of the Council, which is political but not Catholic.The liberals do not have unity on doctrine in the Catholic Church.

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Across town, on the evening of Jan. 25, Pope Francis and the archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, will preside over a prayer service commissioning a group of 50 Anglican and Catholic bishops to go out into the world to be witnesses of Christian unity.

Lionel: Justin Welby is outside the Catholic Church where there is no salvation. The group of 50 Catholic bishops would have to interpret Vatican Council II rationally. This is obligatory morally.They would have to interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church rationally. So their conclusion would have to be that the Anglicans are outside the Church, and on the way to Hell.

Welby is supported by King Charles of England who has pledged to support only Protestantism. He also protects Scottish Masonry, as his father did officially. How can God and Satan be supported at the same time?

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The commissioning service will take place at the Papal Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls — not only the site of the tomb of the apostle Paul, but also the very location where on Jan. 25, 1959, Pope St. John XXIII announced that he intended to call an ecumenical council.

Lionel: When Pope St. John XIII announced that he intended to call an ecumenical council he had rejected the traditional interpretation the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). He had accepted the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Bishop of Boston which confused invisible cases of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance as being visible exceptions for Feeneyite EENS.This would also change the interpretation of the Creeds for Catholics.

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The pope's plans for the Second Vatican Council, which surprised the cardinals gathered that day at the chapter room of the Benedictine abbey attached to the basilica, set into motion what would later be recognized as a historic turning point in relations among Christians, where unity was identified as a top priority...

Lionel: The Second Vatican Council II when interpreted rationally only supports an ecumenism of return to the Catholic Church.-Lionel Andrades

https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/view-vatican/rome-celebrates-christian-unity-week-joint-prayers-and-woman-preaching

 

The popes made Vatican Council II a break instead of a continuity with Tradition : Pope John XXIII interpreted the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance irrationally.

 

Curial horror greeted John XXIII's announcement of ecumenical council

Pope John XXIII prays in the Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls on Jan. 25, 1959, just before announcing his plans to convoke the Second Vatican Council. The pope cited a need to update the church and promote Christian unity. (CNS file photo)

VIEWPOINT

This is the first of an occasional series of articles about the Second Vatican Council that will appear this year in NCR leading up to 50th anniversary of the council's opening on Oct. 11, 2012. In October, NCR will publish a special edition devoted solely to the council's 50th anniversary. Read more about it here.

Wednesday, the Catholic church should have celebrated -- but didn't -- an important anniversary, the day 53 years ago when Pope John XXIII invited 18 Curia cardinals to accompany him to a ceremony at St. Paul Outside the Walls. It was the feast day of St. Paul, who is believed to have been executed in Rome about 67 A.D. and buried where the basilica named after him now stands.

It was also the final day of the Octave for Christian Unity, an objective close to the pope's heart. Presumably because of the attendance of so many Vatican higher-ups, the ceremony lasted longer than usual. The result was that the content of the carefully timed announcement the pope made to the cardinals had been released to the media before the cardinals were told.

What they heard stunned them. The new pope -- he had been elected only three months earlier -- told them he intended to summon an ecumenical council and would they please give him their views about it.

One would not need to be in the Vatican very long before knowing what the cardinals would think about an ecumenical council. If they had been asked to vote on it, they might have turned their thumbs firmly down.

Instead, they looked at the pope, first in amazement and then in horror. At any time the Curia has disfavored ecumenical councils. Councils denote change and to the Curia change is anathema. It suggests that the existing situation is not perfect, and to the Curia the church is perfect. A council also suggests the pope needs bishops to advise him. The Curia view, especially since 1870 when papal infallibility was promulgated, is that the pope himself can make any necessary decision, so there is no further need for councils. And any suggestion that people outside the walls of the Vatican needed to be consulted was a slur on the Curia, which liked to regard itself as participating in that creeping papal infallibility.

Lionel: Pope John XXIII was interpreting the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance irrationally. He did not correct the mistake in the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (LOHO). It was issued during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII.

The same mistake which Pope John XIII ignored i.e. invisible cases are confused as being physical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, is repeated at Vatican Council II, by Pope Paul VI.

The liberalism in the Catholic Church has come from the mistake in the 1949 LOHO which Pope Paul VI repeated in 1965. We can now avoid it by interpreting the Council rationally.

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What mostly astounded the cardinals was that a pope nobody had expected to produce any surprises should make such a major decision. Cardinal Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli was far from being numbered among the papabili, the leading contenders in the conclave of October 1958 to elect a successor to Pius XII. It was only on the third day of the conclave, when the voting became deadlocked, that his name was mentioned. He himself was astonished. He had come to Rome on a return train ticket and with only an overnight bag, expecting to be back in Venice after two days. He didn't expect to be pope. And he didn't want to be.

The cardinals who supported him had voted for a man they considered would be an interim pope, creating no waves in a church recovering from the frenetic pontificate of Pius XII. In his 19 years on the throne of St. Peter, Pius had not thought it necessary to summon an ecumenical council. Why then, thought the cardinals in St. Paul that morning in 1959, did this old man -- he was then 77 -- want to go stirring things up when all they wanted was a few years of peace to let things settle down? No wonder they were speechless as the new man dropped his bombshell.

John claimed later that he had expected that the cardinals, "after hearing our allocution, might have crowded round to express approval and good wishes." Instead, he added, "there was a devout and impressive silence. Explanations came on the following days." This evaluation of the cardinals' reaction is either very charitable or, more likely, a somewhat rueful remark from an old countryman who was nobody's fool.

Lionel: The cardinals had ignored the mistake in the 1949 LOHO. Even Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was not aware of the mistake and his irrational interpretation of the Council in 1965.

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He maintained this attitude to the end. Nearly three years later, Oct. 11, 1962, when he formally opened the council, he said the decision to call it "came to us in the first instance in a sudden flash of inspiration." And recalling the silent reaction of the cardinals, he added serenely, if implausibly, "The response was immediate. It was as though some ray of supernatural light had entered the minds of all present: It was reflected in their faces; it shone from their eyes."

Lionel: ‘The silent reaction of the cardinals’. Even today they are silent.Even after 60-plus years the cardinals do not see the objective mistake in the 1949 LOHO which was repeated in 1965 by Pope Paul VI.

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The accounts of council historians do not support such a benevolent portrayal of the Curia's contribution to the work of the Second Vatican Council. From the start it worked to preempt the council. It proposed 10 commissions, each with 24 members, to run the council and helpfully nominated Curia people to most of the positions. It submitted 70 documents for the council's consideration. And it trusted the council could be completed in one session.

Lionel: The Council is orthodox and traditional when it is interpreted rationally.

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The Curia's preemptory bid to take control of the council in one suave swoop was stopped in its tracks. As soon as it was made, two European cardinals, Achille Liénart of Lille, France, and Josef Frings of Munich, Germany, protested. Bishops from the four corners of the world, 2,500 of them, had come to Rome for the council. They had not had a chance to get to know each other. How could they decide who would be best for what commission? They needed a few days to consider the options.

The council bishops, some of whom had never before been in the overwhelming surroundings of St. Peter's, and most of whom were bewildered by the enormity and complexity of what they were faced with, reacted with delight. The Curia proposals, including the membership of the commissions and the 70 draft decrees were swept aside. The amendment to postpone the opening of the council for two days was carried with a massive majority. The bishops streamed out of St. Peter's to gather outside in the vast piazza in excited knots to discuss what had happened. The first meeting of Vatican II, which was to meet in three-month sessions over the next four years, was finished. It had lasted some 17 minutes.

Lionel: They made a mistake when they cited LG 8,14,15,16,UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc in Vatican Council II and then made another mistake, when they interpreted LG 8,14,15,16 as being practical exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, when really these are only hypothetical cases. The pope from Paul VI to Francis have approved this error.They made Vatican Council II a break, instead of continuity with Tradition.-Lionel Andrades

[Desmond Fisher is a former editor of The Catholic Herald, London, and a former head of current affairs at Radió Telefís Éireann.]

 

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/curial-horror-greeted-john-xxiiis-announcement-ecumenical-council

Why should the priests in Covington interpret Vatican Council II dishonestly? Why is it obligatory? They have a choice whose conclusion is traditional.

 

Kentucky bishop removes two priests' faculties for denigrating post-Vatican II Mass

Covington, Ky. — January 24, 2024

The bishop of Covington has rescinded permission for two priests to minister in his diocese after they publicly dismissed the contemporary celebration of Mass in the Roman rite as "irrelevant."

Lionel: The Mass is relevant with the past ecclesiology supported by Vatican Council II, interpreted only rationally.

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Bishop John C. Iffert Jan. 16 requested the resignation of Fr. Shannon Collins as pastor of Our Lady of Lourdes Parish in Park Hills, a Covington suburb. Fr. Sean Kopczynski also has been removed as the parish's parochial vicar. The bishop also removed the priests' faculties to teach, preach or celebrate sacraments.

Lionel: The bishop interprets Vatican Council II irrationally at the Novus Ordo Mass. This is dishonesty. Without the false premise, inference and conclusion, the Novus Ordo Mass would have the exclusivist ecclesiology of the Latin Mass and the old Roman Ritual. It is the bishop who should not be allowed to preach and celebrate the Sacraments until he receives absolution in the Confessional and ends the scandal. He is presently also interpreting the Creeds irrationally and non traditionally.

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While they are not permitted to celebrate the Mass publicly, the priests may celebrate Mass privately for themselves, immediate family members and members of the Missionaries of St. John the Baptist, a fledgling religious community in Covington they founded.

The Missionaries of St. John the Baptist is a public association of the faithful dedicated to the celebration of the liturgy and sacraments according to the 1962 Roman Missal. Bishop Roger J. Foys of Covington, who retired in 2021, formally erected the community as a public association of the faithful in 2019, although the priests have been serving in the diocese since at least 2011. The priests were working toward eventual recognition of the Missionaries of St. John the Baptist as an institute of diocesan right within the Diocese of Covington.

Lionel: The community however is interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally like the bishop.

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Iffert, who has led the Covington Diocese since 2021, said in a Jan. 17 letter to members of Our Lady of Lourdes Parish that he removed the priests' faculties after learning that Collins "had preached in the parish that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as celebrated in the current Roman Catholic liturgy, is 'irrelevant,' preserves 'literally nothing of the old,' and that the reform of the liturgy was motivated by hatred towards traditional Catholics and the ancient liturgies of Rome."

According to the letter, "Both Father Collins and Father Kopczynski maintain these errors and refuse the opportunity to renounce them. This disqualifies them from being granted permission to publicly celebrate the Sacraments using the 1962 Missale Romanum and from leading a personal parish like Our Lady of Lourdes."...

Lionel: The priests are correct. Vatican Council II interpreted irrationally rejects the past ecclesiology. There cannot be a reform of the Mass with the Council interpreted dishonestly for political –left reasons.

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...In his letter, Iffert wrote, "I did not take this action lightly" and said he consulted with the diocese's vicar general, deans, judicial vicar and other bishops as he determined how to handle the situation.

Lionel: The pope, cardinals and bishops cannot interpret LG 8, 14, 15,16,UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc as referring to physically visible non Catholics saved outside the Church in 1965-2024. This is a false premise. Then it cannot be inferred that these visible non Catholics, known in particular cases, are objective examples of salvation outside the Church. So the conclusion is that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the past exclusivist ecclesiology are made obsolete. This is dishonest. LG 8,14,15,16 etc always refers to invisible people in 2024. They cannot be practical exceptions for Tradition.

So for example, Pope Francis could not issue Amoris Laetitia based upon interpreting Vatican Council II in this irrational and dishonest way.

He could not issue Traditionis Custode with the same deceptions. Instead if he interpreted the Council rationally, then he would have to support only the ecclesiology of the 16^th century Roman Missal. This can be the only ecclesiology, of the Novus Ordo Mass today. In Covington they are all interpreting the Council irrationally, producing a non traditional conclusion and then they have dismissed these two priests from not accepting the lie.

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"For some time now, I had serious concerns about the parish's pastoral leadership," he wrote. "I attempted to resolve those concerns in conversation and fraternal correction with these priests, who are brothers and sons to me. Regretfully I have been unable to do so."...

Lionel: Why should the priests interpret Vatican Council II dishonestly? Why is it obligatory? They have a choice whose conclusion is traditional.

-Lionel Andrades

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https://www.ncronline.org/news/kentucky-bishop-removes-two-priests-faculties-denigrating-post-vatican-ii-mass