There are two interpretations of the Nicene Creed too. Most Catholics hold the irrational version

 There are two interpretations of the Nicene Creed.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins - Nicene Creed

1. There is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, it is the baptism of water. It is physically visible and repeatable.

Or.

2.There are more than three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins, they are known baptisms, personally visible. They are the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance. They exclude the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so are practical exceptions to Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) as explained in the Letter of the Holy Office(CDF) 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston. It was referenced also in Vatican Council II(Lumen Gentium 16).-Lionel Andrades

NICENE CREED

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,

he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead

and the life of the world to come. Amen.

SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 2016

The Vatican Curia interprets the Nicene Creed with irrational Cushingism : 'I believe in three known baptisms for the forgiveness of sins.'

-Lionel Andrades

-Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search?q=Nicene+Creed

Bishop Robert Barron's personal liberal Catholicism, his “beige Catholicism.” is now obsolete

I commenced my writing career, roughly twenty-five years ago, as a critic of liberal Catholicism, which I referred to, in one of the first articles I ever published, as “beige Catholicism.” By this designation, I meant a faith that had become culturally accommodating, hand-wringing, unsure of itself; a Church that had allowed its distinctive colors to be muted and its sharp edges to be dulled. In a series of articles and talks as well as in such books as And Now I See, The Strangest Way, and especially The Priority of Christ, I laid out my critique of the type of Catholicism that held sway in the years after the Second Vatican Council as well as my vision of what a renewed and evangelically compelling Church would look like. I emphasized Christocentrism as opposed to anthropocentrism, a Scripture-based theological method rather than one grounded in human experience, the need to resist the reduction of Christianity to psychology and social service, a recovery of the great Catholic intellectual tradition, and a robust embrace of evangelical proclamation. In all of this, I took as my mentor Pope John Paul II, especially the sainted pontiff’s interpretation of Vatican II as a missionary council, whose purpose was to bring Christ to the nations.

https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/article/the-evangelical-path-of-word-on-fire/30079/

Bishop Robert Barron's personal liberal Catholicism, his  “beige Catholicism.” is now obsolete. Since without him using the false premise to interpret LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc the Council would not contradict the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Tradition.There is no denial from him and Word on Fire. He has been using a false premise to interpret Magisterial documents. How can there be an evangelical path which is Christocentric without also being Ecclesiocentric ?.

So his interpretation of the Apostles Creed would also be irrational.This is something serious. -Lionel Andrades

THE EVANGELICAL PATH OF WORD ON FIRE

by Bishop Robert BarronMarch 2, 2021

FEBRUARY 2, 2020

Cardinal Ratzinger is a Cushingite and has interpreted the Nicene Creed with a false premise and inference which was not the understanding of the past centuries.Ignatius Press has published Credo for Today addressed to Christians and not Catholics. The Nicene Creed can be interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism and the conclusion would be different.

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/cardinal-ratzinger-is-cushingite-and-so.html

_____________________________

FEBRUARY 2, 2020

 

Literal and objective errors mark Pope Benedict's books published by Ignatius Press.He has interpreted the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II irrationally

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/literal-and-objective-errors-mark-pope.html

FEBRUARY 2, 2020

Living the Catechism of the Catholic Church by Cardinal Schonborn (Ignatius) is inadequate. It has interpreted the Catechism irrationally with the Cushingite premise, inference and conclusion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II can be interpreted without the Ratzinger theology.

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/living-catechism-of-catholic-church-by.html

FEBRUARY 2, 2020

  

Fr.Aidan Nicols Dominican Master of Sacred Theology has authored The Theology of Joseph Ratzinger (1988) and like the pope interprets Vatican Council II with the false premise, inference and conclusion. This is a fault line in the books of Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict pubished by Ignatius Press.Pope Benedict and Fr. Nicols need to stop promoting their books with the misinformation

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/fraidan-nicols-dominican-master-of.html

 FEBRUARY 1, 2020

 

Ignatius Press needs to acknowledge that Pope Benedict, Aidan Nicols and so many of their authors have made an objective mistake

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/02/ignatius-press-needs-to-acknowledge.html

JANUARY 3, 2020
    Another  book on salvation being promoted by Ignatius Press and EWTN  https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/01/another-misleading-book-on-salvation.html

JANUARY 14, 2020

Ignatius Press needs to pull back Pope Benedict's book on ecclesiology since it was written with a false interpretation of Vatican Council II.https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/01/ignatius-press-needs-to-pull-back-pope.html

JANUARY 21, 2020

Ignatius Press needs to stop publishing books on Vatican Council II by authors who interpret LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA, 2, GS 22 etc as being exceptions to traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).Books written by Pope Benedict also carry this error https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2020/01/ignatius-press-needs-to-stop-publishing.html

FALSE PREMISE DEFINED 

Their false premise is:-

1. Invisible people are visible.

2.Unknown case of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance are personally known.

3.The unknown case of the catechumen who desired the baptism of water but dies before he received it and is saved, is a personally known person.

4.There is known salvation outside the Catholic Church for us human beings.

5.We can see people in Heaven saved without the baptism of water.

6.We can physically see non Catholics in Heaven and on earth who are saved without 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).

7.There are non Catholics who are dead- men visible and walking  who are saved outside the Church.

8.There are known people in invincible ignorance through no fault of their own, who are saved.

9.There are some Anglicans and Protestants whom we know who are going to Heaven even though they are outside the Catholic Church.

10.There are some non Catholics whom we know, who are dead, and now are in Heaven, even though they were not Catholic.

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/08/bradley-eli-at-church-militant-tv-uses.html

 With the false premise there are 'objective exceptions' to EENS. There are visible exceptions to the Athanasius Creed, the Nicene Creed is changed, there is a new understanding of the Nicene Creed etc :-

1. The Athanasius Creed which says outside the Church there is no salvation is contradicted.

2. The Nicene Creed in which we say, 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins' over the centuries referred  to only one known baptism, the baptism of water.The baptism of desire etc cannot be given to someone like the baptism of water.But now the understanding is ' I believe in three or more known baptisms for the forgiveness of sins ( desire,blood and ignorance) and they exclude the baptism of water in the Catholic Church'.

3. The Apostles Creed says ' we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church'. Over the centuries it was understood that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church and taught that there was no salvation outside the Church.Now  unknown cases of the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance, and LG 8, UR 3, NA2, GS 22 etc in Vatican Council II, are assumd to be objective examples of salvation outside the Church.

4.In the past three Church Councils defined the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) in the extraordinary Magisterium .It was an 'infallible teaching' for Pope Pius X( Letter of the Holy Offie 1949).Now it is obsolete with their being alleged known salvation outside the Church.
5.Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church are interpreted with the false premise so they become a rupture with EENS( Feeneyite), the Syllabus of Errors, Athanasius Creed etc.

6.With the false premise the Catechism of Pope Pius X contradict itself. It affirms the strict interpretation of EENS while invincible invincible ignorance is intepreted as referring to personally known non Catholics saved outside the Chuch.Invincible ignorance is not seen as a hypothetical case only.

7.Redemptoris Missio, Dominus Iesus, Ecclesia in Asia, Balamand Declaration  etc were all written upholding the false premise. They did not support exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. So in a subtle way they contradicted EENS(Feeneyite), the Athanasius Creed etc. They did not support the past ecclesiology and an ecumenism of return.They are Christological without the traditional ecclesiocentric ecclesiology. It's Christ without the necessity of membership in the Catholic Church for salvation.
8. Traditional mission based upon exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church is rejected. Since with the false premise, there is salvation outside the Church.
9.Inter faith marriages which are not Sacraments are common held.It is no more adultery. Since the non Catholic spouse could be saved outside the Church it is assumed. A posibility which could only be known to God is assumed to be a practical exception to EENS and a literally known case of salvation outside the Church in a personal case.
10. There is a new heretical ecclesiology at Holy Mass in all the rites and liturgies. The Latin Mass today does not have the same exclusivist ecclesiology of the Tridentine Rite Mass of the missionaries in the 16th century.

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2019/08/cardinal-reinhold-marx-of-munich.html

Father Richard Gennaro Cipolla who uses a false premise to interpret Vatican Council II and create a rupture with Tradition which he is supposed to affirm, corrects Bishop Robert Barron who uses that same false premise to interpret the Council and approve the non traditional conclusion

 Father Richard Gennaro Cipolla who uses a false premise to interpret Vatican Council II and create a rupture with Tradition which he is supposed to affirm, corrects Bishop Robert Barron. 

He uses that same false premise to interpret the Council but approves the non traditional conclusion. -Lionel Andrades

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/03/a-response-to-bp-barrons-criticism-of.html

How does don Pietro Leone interpret the Apostles Creed at Holy Mass ?

 How does Rorate Caeili and Don Pietro interpret the Apostles Creed at Holy Mass ?

There are two options, one rational and the other irrational, one traditional and the other non traditional, one heretical and the other non heretical, one schismatic and the other not a rupture with the past Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Most Catholics choose the irrational version which is not prohibited by the popes, cardinals and bishops.

1. Do you say in church, at Holy Mass when the Creed is prayed, " I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Catholic Church there is salvation, known salvation, there are visible non Catholics saved without faith and the baptism of water and so there is no communion with the saints on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Athanasius Creed etc  ? 

Or,

2. Do you say in church at Mass , "I beleive in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints" and then mean that the Holy Spirit guides the Church today to teach that outside the Church there is no known salvation, there are no physically visible non Catholics in 2021 saved without Catholic faith and the baptism of water in the Catholic Church and so there is  communion with the saints- Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Francis Xavier, Catherine of Siena, Maximillian Kolbe etc - on extra ecclesiam nulla salus( with no exceptions, like in the 16th century) the Athanasius Creed which says all need to be Catholic for salvation, the Catechism of Pope Pius X ( 24Q, 27Q), the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX ( ecumenism of return), Quas Primas o Pope Pius XI on the Proclamation of the Social Reign of Christ the King in all political legislation etc ?

What are your answers to these three questions?

 1. Do you affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) with no exceptions ? Can I quote you ?

2.There are  no physically visible cases of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. We cannot see them physically. Do you agree with me, there are no visible cases in 2021? Can I quote you?

3.If the popes, cardinals and bishops are interpreting Magisterial documents with a false premise to create an objective error it still is a violation of Aristotle's Principle of Non Contradiction. There is no exemption for rank or status. Do you agree ?

FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION : THREE MORE QUESTIONS

1) Do we personally know of any dead person now in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc,can we physically see them, in 2021 ?

2) Since we do not know any of these cases, in real life, they are not visible to us, there are no known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, or Ad Gentes 7 which states 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for salvation ?

3) So are LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc practical exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

Not for me. -Lionel Andrades

MARCH 12, 2021

For a Cushingite Don Pietro Leone Lumen Gentium 8 etc would be known non Catholics saved outside the Church in 2014-2021.So he would conclude that it is the fault of Vatican Council II

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2021/03/for-cushingite-like-don-piert-leone-lg.html

For a Cushingite Don Pietro Leone Lumen Gentium 8 etc would be known non Catholics saved outside the Church in 2014-2021.So he would conclude that it is the fault of Vatican Council II

 

From the webblog Rorate Caeii

Don Pietro Leone: The Council and the Eclipse of God – PART V

 

                                                          THE CHURCH

     

                            I   THE CHURCH CONSIDERED IN HERSELF

After a brief introduction to expound Catholic teaching concerning the Church in Herself, we shall see how the Council opposes this teaching.

 

 

Introduction

 

In this introduction we shall briefly expound the Church’s:

 

a)     Nature;

b)    End, and Means for Attaining the End;

c)     Constitution;

d)    Properties;

e)     Necessity.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/03/don-pietro-leone-council-and-eclipse-of_11.html#more

Lionel: Don Pietro Leone is a Cushingite Lefebvrist. He interprets Vatican Council II like the liberals. He uses the false premise.

He says outside the Church there is no salvation but means that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions. So really outside the Church there is salvation.

In this article he has not mentioned the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) defined by three Church Councils.

He cannot do so. He is a Cushingite and so invisble cases are objective exceptions to EENS. So Vatican Council II would contradict EENS for him. 

This is typical of the followers of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who attend/offer the Latin Mass with the new ecclesiology,and reject the past exclusivist ecclesiology of the Catholic Church.

Without the false premise LG 8, LG 14, LG 16 etc are not practical exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.

For a Cushingite like Don Piert Leone LG 8 etc would be interpreted as being known non Catholics, objectively visible people saved outside the Church. So they would contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Don Leone would conclude that it is the fault of Vatican Council II.-Lionel Andrades

________________________

FRIDAY, MARCH 14, 2014

How to Regard Vatican II
a special essay by Don Pietro Leone

Many of our readers are aware of the work of Don Pietro Leone (for instance, The Roman Rite: Old and New, on the Traditional Mass and the many problems of the new liturgy). Don Pietro Leone is the pen name of a priest who celebrates the traditional Mass in full and peaceful communion with his Ordinary somewhere in that great cradle of civilization known as Italy.

In this special essay, reflecting the personal position of the author and translated by our contributor Francesca Romana, the reverend Father tries to explain what is the best way to regard the Second Vatican Council, 50 years later and with the full knowledge of all its fruits and consequences, willed or unintentional...

The obscure texts are ambiguous between a non-Catholic sense which is primary, and a Catholic sense which is secondary. In the primary sense they represent a rupture with Tradition and the Faith, whereas in the secondary sense they represent a line of continuity with Tradition and the Faith.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

 

Rorate Caeili has presented an analysis of Vatican Council II by Don Pietro Leone who did not know that Lumen Gentium 16 etc is invisible for us. It does not refer to those saved in invincible ignorance as being visible in the flesh. It does not state that they can be seen with the naked eye.So LG 16 is not an exception to Tradition. It is with this simple error that Don Leone  has analysed Vatican Council II.

 

The dead for us, saved in invincible ignorance  Don Leone assumes is a known exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the rest of Tradition. So these cases of persons dead and  and visible to Don Leone are known exceptions to all needing to enter the Church for salvation. This becomes a  break with the Syllabus of Errors etc.

 

This is the typical SSPX error. They were led into this error when they assumed that the baptism of desire is a known exception to the  traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, according to the saints and popes.

 

Since Don Leone assumes LG 16 is explicit for us and not implicit for us the texts of Vatican Council II emerge 'obscure' (surely AG 7 will contradict LG 16). They are 'ambigous'.Since AG 7 affirms the dogma on exclusive salvation while LG 16 (explicit for Don Leone) contradicts the dogma.
 

LG 16 (explicit for us) 'represent a rupture with Tradition and the Faith' while LG 16 (invisible for us and not an exception to the dogma on salvation) 'represent a line of continuity with Tradition and the Faith.'

-Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/search?q=Don+Pietro+Leone