Tuesday, April 1, 2014

Factual error approved by popes

'10. Exclusivist ecclesiocentrism—the fruit of a specific theological system or of a mistaken understanding of the phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus—is no longer defended by Catholic theologians after the clear statements of Pius XII and Vatican Council II on the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church (cf, e.g., LG 16; GS 22)...'-International Theological Commission, Christianity and the World Religions 
 
Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis, cardinals and archbishops have not objected to this passage from  Christianity and the World Religions by the International Theological Commission 1997.  
 
There is a factual mistake here.
 
'the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church (cf, e.g., LG 16...')
It is a possibility of salvation ,true, but it is not an exception to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. A possibility is not an exception.
If a possibility was an exception then we could physically see the deceased saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16). This passage above implies that we can see the deceased now saved in Heaven for them to be exceptions to the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, according to Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston. It is a fact that we cannot see the dead. 
Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J, the present Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican approved this passage.
 
67. Vatican Council II makes its own the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus. But in using it the council explicitly directs itself to Catholics and limits its validity to those who know the necessity of the Church for salvation. The council holds that the affirmation is based on the necessity of faith and of baptism affirmed by Christ (LG 14). In this way the council aligned itself in continuity with the teaching of Pius XII, but emphasized more clearly the original parenthentical character of this expression.- Christianity and the World Religions 1997,International Theological Commission

and limits its validity to those who know the necessity of the Church for salvation.
Again it is being implied that possibilities of salvation known only to  God are personally known to us in the  present times.
Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith and baptism for salvation and we do not know any one how is going to be condemned or saved, who 'knew' about the Church or was in invincible ignorance.Possibilities are not known exceptions to the traditional teaching on salvation. Every one needs to enter the Church for salvation in 2014 and not only those who know. Those who know or do not know will be decided by God.
 
The same objective error is made in the ITC's The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without the being baptized'. 

59. The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (1949) offers further specifications. “To gain eternal salvation, it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is necessary that one belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio). It is not always necessary that this desire be explicit as it is with catechumens.
When one is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good disposition of soul by which a person wants his or her will to be conformed to God’s will”.
 
When one is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good disposition of soul by which a person wants his or her will to be conformed to God’s will”. - The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without the being baptized', International Theological Commission,2007 
 
Being saved in invincible ignorance is a possibility it is not a known exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. These cases-saved are known only to God so they are irrelevant to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney. There is confusion here between what is objective and subjective, visible and invisible, known in realilty or hypotethetical.
The popes and the ITC have assumed hypothetical cases are personally known exceptions. This is factually incorrect.-Lionel Andrades



http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/04/with-all-due-respect-to-cardinal-joseph.html#links


The Holy See
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INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION
THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED
*








http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/06/itc-documents-christianity-and-world.html#links


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INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
(1997)

PRELIMINARY NOTE


Exclusivist ecclesiocentrism is still the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II

Jabba:
'10. Exclusivist ecclesiocentrism—the fruit of a specific theological system or of a mistaken understanding of the phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus—is no longer defended by Catholic theologians after the clear statements of Pius XII and Vatican Council II on the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church (cf, e.g., LG 16; GS 22).'-International Theological Commission, Christianity and the World Religions
 
Lionel:
Exclusivist ecclesiocentrism is still the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II since we do not know of any exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
The traditional teaching still stands.
It is the liberal theologians who have not acknowledged AG 7 which says all need to convert with 'faith and baptism' . They have also assumed that LG 16 is a visible, known exception to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney. If this was assumed by also Pope Pius XII then he made a factual mistake too.
 
However in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 Pope Pius XII supports Fr.Leonard Feeney on doctrine/dogma when he refers to ‘the dogma’ the ‘infallible teaching’ and says it should be understood and interpreted as the Church does. For centuries the church taught ‘exclusivist ecclesiolcentrism’ and the text of ‘the dogma’ does not mention any exceptions nor considers the baptism of desire an exception.
-Lionel Andrades
 
http://protectthepope.com/?p=10239

Lutherans and other Protestants do not have Catholic Faith, which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacraments through which God saves.

Peter:
Are you saying that there is no salvation outside the catholic church whatsoever?
 
Lionel:
I am saying that Vatican Council II (AG 7) says all need ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation. So this means the majority of non Catholics who die without faith and baptism are oriented to Hell at the time of death, if they have not converted into the Catholic Church.This teaching is also confirmed by the Catechism 1993(CCC 846), Dominus Iesus(20), the Catechism of Pope Pius X etc. So it is not a personal view.
In Heaven there are only Catholics, who have died without mortal sin on their soul and who had faith and baptism.
 
Peter
Out of interest what do think about the document ‘From Conflict to Communion’ on Lutheran/Catholic relations and Pope Benedict’s words to Sigrid Spath?
 
Lionel:
Lutherans and other Protestants do not have Catholic Faith, which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Catholic Church and the Sacraments through which God saves.They are outside the Church.
-Lionel Andrades

Bishop Fellay has never said that the baptism of desire is invisible for us while he has approved books and web pages saying it is visible in real life

 
EditorCT
Anyone who has the desire to be baptised and dies before he is able to BE baptised, may be saved.
 
Lionel:
Yes he may be saved. Yes I agree with you.
The baptism of desire is a possibility for salvation.
 
EditorCT
That’s what is meant by “baptism of desire” – I’m sure that is what I was taught at school and I’ve never heard any SSPX priest say differently.
 
Lionel:
The baptism of desire is not a problem for me.
The issue is : is the baptism of desire invisible for us or visible for us ?Can we see these cases in real life or are they hypothetical only ?
No SSPX priest wants to comment in public on this one. Privately they will agree with me.
 
EditorCT
I doubt very much if Bishop Fellay said anything differently either.


 
 
Lionel:
Bishop Fellay has never said that the baptism of desire is invisible for us.While he has approved books and web pages indicating that the baptism of desire is visible for us in real life.
It is because he considers those dead and now saved in Heaven as being visible that he assumes Vatican Council II contradicts the traditional teaching on other religions and ecumenism.
 
EditorCT
 
I think Andrades, as is his wont, had jumped on the word “exception” and made it mean something unintended. I can well imagine using that word myself when explaining the teaching, forgetting about criticis who pounce on every word in nit-picking fashion.
 
Lionel:
It is common in the Catholic Church, this includes supporters of the SSPX, to say that the baptism of desire is an exception to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney. This implies that there are known cases on earth saved with the baptism of desire.For it to be an exception the person must exist. So the conclusion is that every one does not have to a member of the Catholic Church for salvation. This is a new doctrine rejecting the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
-Lionel Andrades

Muslim Brotherhood Slaughter Christian Woman

Muslim Brotherhood Slaughter Christian Woman

 
On Friday, March 28, in Ain Shams, a suburb of Cairo, rioting Muslim Brotherhood supporters attacked the Virgin Mary and Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Church, including by opening fire on it and setting parked cars aflame. Four people died.
Mary: Martyred for the Cross
One of the slain, a young Coptic woman, was savagely mauled and molested before being murdered—simply because her cross identified her as a Christian to the Brotherhood rioters.
According to an eyewitness who discussed the entire event on the Egyptian program, 90 Minutes, Mary Sameh George was parking by the church to deliver medicine to a sickly, elderly woman:
Once they saw that she was a Christian [because of the cross hanging on her rear view mirror], they jumped on top of the car, to the point that the vehicle was no longer visible. The roof of the car collapsed in. When they realized that she was starting to die, they pulled her out of the car and started pounding on her and pulling her hair—to the point that portions of her hair and scalp came off. They kept beating her, kicking her, stabbing her with any object or weapon they could find…. Throughout [her ordeal] she tried to protect her face, giving her back to the attackers, till one of them came and stabbed her right in the back, near the heart, finishing her off. Then another came and grabbed her by the hair, shaking her head, and with the other hand slit her throat. Another pulled her pants off, to the point that she was totally naked.
The eyewitness, as well as many others who have since appeared on videos, complained about Egyptian State Security and how it did not intervene—just like under Morsi, when St. Mark Cathedral was besieged, even as security stood by—how it knows exactly who the murderers are, and how one of Mary’s murderers, whom “everyone reported to Security,” was simply relaxing in his home, not even hiding.
Added the eyewitness: “Let me tell you, here in Ain Shams, we [Christians] know that every Friday is a day of death; that the day after Friday, Saturday, we’ll be carried to the morgue!”
In fact, the overwhelming majority of attacks on Egypt’s Christians occur on Friday—the day when pious Muslims meet in mosque for prayers and to hear sermons.
The significance of this fact can only be understood by analogy: what if Christians were especially violent to non-Christian minorities on Sunday—right after they got out of church? What would that say about what goes on in Christian churches?
What does it say about what goes on in Muslim mosques?
A video of Mary’s family members has one woman screaming out the following words—which may be of interest to some Americans:
A message to [U.S. President Barack] Obama, who is calling for the Brotherhood to return to power again. I want to tell him, have mercy, enough is enough! His brother is in the al-Qaeda organization! Why do you want to destroy Egypt?….Egypt will remain whether you, the Brotherhood, or anyone else likes it or not!
She was referring to something that is as well known in Egypt as it is little known in the United States: that the Obama administration is a sponsor of the Muslim Brotherhood, which itself is connected to al-Qaeda.
The rest of the video portrays some of Mary’s other family members—many in tears and near hysteria—prompting one to wonder: where is the U.S media? I have not seen a word on this latest Islamic attack on a church and Christians on BBC, CNN, or any of the so-called “mainstream media”? Why is that? They had no problem constantly showing us (over and over again) a video clip of a hysterical female relative of a member of Malaysian flight MH370.
Mary’s family members mourn during church funeral
The mainstream media is silent because Muslim persecution of Christians in general—Obama-sponsored Muslim Brotherhood in particular—throws a huge wrench in their narrative.
After all, how many Americans ever heard of the largest massacre of Syrian Christians by U.S.-supported Islamic rebels?
Responding to this latest murder of a Christian, Coptic Bishop Raphaeil wrote:
Oh how lucky you are, Mary, you who are beloved of Christ. They tore your body because of the Cross. Yet they offered you the greatest service and gave you a name of honor as one who has attained the crown of martyrdom.
More poignantly, the bishop quoted Christ in the Bible, “Yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service” (John 16:2)—a reference to the fact that the Muslims slaughtering the followers of Christ all around the world quite often believe they are doing God’s (or Allah’s) work.
Hence why anecdotes such as Friday’s are becoming immensely regular in the Muslim world. Indeed, only a few months ago, two other Coptic Christian girls — both also named “Mary” — were slain when Brotherhood supporters opened fire on yet another church.
Such is the dramatic, eye-opening, and medieval world outside U.S. borders that the “powers that be” do not want you to know about—for only their well-crafted, self-serving narratives must prevail.
 

Interfaith outreach in Nigeria: Enraged Muslims set fire to Catholic church over alleged insult to Muhammad

Interfaith outreach in Nigeria: Enraged Muslims set fire to Catholic church over alleged insult to Muhammad

By on Apr 1, 2014 
Burned church NigeriaWestern Christians, Catholic and Protestant, set a great deal of hope upon their ongoing “dialogue” with Muslim leaders. But what good is the “dialogue” if it does nothing to deter Muslims from attacking churches and other Christian installations? What good is “dialogue” if it makes all the parties feel good but doesn’t deal with the tough issues that make this dialogue necessary in the first place?
“Catholic church in north Nigeria set aflame,” from the Associated Press, March 31 (thanks to Kenneth):
KANO, Nigeria (AP) — Witnesses and an official say angry Muslim youths set ablaze a Catholic church and tried to destroy an attached school in northern Nigeria over an alleged insult to the Prophet Muhammad.
Witness Tukur Musa says soldiers on Monday stopped the mob from setting ablaze the school in Funtua town in Katsina state, but they arrived too late to save St. Rita Catholic Church.
He says the town was in an uproar about an examination question last week which they considered an insult to the Prophet Muhammad. They reported the matter to district authorities. When no action was taken, young Muslims attacked.
Deputy Police Superintendent Aminu Abubakar Saddiq confirmed the church was burned and school damaged but said no one was injured.
Religious strife is common in central and northern Nigeria.
 http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/04/interfaith-outreach-in-nigeria-enraged-muslims-set-fire-to-catholic-church-over-alleged-insult-to-muhammad

With all due respect to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger...

from Protect the Pope Blog, Lionel Andrades and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
 
Michael B Rooke
in response to Lionel Andrades:
Michael B Rooke It might be noted INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS (1997) PRELIMINARY NOTE The study of the theme “Christianity and the World Religions” was adopted for study by a large majority of the members of the International Theological Commission. …..The present text was approved “in forma specifica” by vote of [...]
The term ‘Cushing-Jesuit Factual Error’ appears to have been invented by Lionel Andrades in 2009.
Lionel:
The term refers to an objective, factual error that is widespread in the Catholic Church.It is an error which can be observed by any person, one does not have to be a Catholic or a theologian to notice it.It would be obvious to a non Catholic too since the subject is common knowledge.No one can claim that human beings in general can see the dead who are now in Heaven. This is fantasy. Then to claim that these deceased cases are exceptions to all needing to enter the Catholic Church , as it was traditionalally taught, is fantasy theology.This mistake has come into the Church from the 1940's and it is not part of the Deposit of the Faith. I have been  calling it the Richard Cushing Error, Cushingism, the Cushing-Jesuit Factual Error or the dead man walking theory.
Michael B Rooke
Under that title Lionel Andrades has written a book and blogged on many sites both against the Society of St Pius X and against the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Lionel:I have not written a book. However I keep pointing out this error whenever I notice it. It is there on the official website of the Society of St.Pius X and it can be read on line on the International Theological Commission website on two theological papers.
Michael B Rooke
Lionel then makes an attack on Cardinal Ratzinger.
Lionel:
With all due respect to Cardinal Ratzinger but the mistake is objectively verifiable on the ITC Vatican website.
Michael B Rooke


“The study of the theme “Christianity and the World Religions” was adopted for study by a large majority of the members of the International Theological Commission. …..The present text was approved “in forma specifica” by vote of the commission on 30 September 1996 and was submitted to its president, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who has given his approval for its publication.
Lionel:They unknowingly used the Cushing-Jesuit Factual Error.”
Lionel:It is a factual mistake which is there on line and it can be corrected by the ITC. It is a specific mistake.
 Michael B Rooke
My view as a mere voice from the pew is that Lionel Andrades is unwittingly or deliberately spreading confusion.
Lionel :
My view is also a mere voice from the pew and I am pointing out to confusion, which is also not part of the Deposit of the Faith and which needs to be acknowledged. It is a fact of life that we cannot see the dead and neither does the Holy Spirit teach this irrationality and new doctrine.-Lionel Andrades
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INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
(1997)

PRELIMINARY NOTE