Friday, September 26, 2014

Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position -3

David Schütz:
This remarkable statement also implies that wherever there is valid baptism and true faith, there is also justification, and thus salvation, even outside the visible boundaries of full communion with the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
This is possible.However it is hypothetical. So it cannot be inferred to be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It must not be inferred to be an example of salvation outside the Church. There is no such case known to us.We do not have a new ecclesiology since there is no case known in the present times of somone saved outside the Church, who did not need the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.This is not a contradiction to Feeneyism.
David Schütz:
This remarkable statement also implies that wherever there is valid baptism and true faith, there is also justification, and thus salvation, even outside the visible boundaries of full communion with the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
This is possible.However it is hypothetical. So it cannot be inferred to be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It must not be inferred to be an example of salvation outside the Church. There is no such case known to us.We do not have a new ecclesiology.Since we do not know the name of someone in 2014 saved outside the Church without the baptism of water.
David Schütz:
Do we find here a contradiction to the statement of Pope Boniface VIII about submission to the Roman Pontiff being necessary for salvation?
Lionel:
There is no contradiction since there is no known salvation outside the Church.
David Schütz:
Not really, if we take Boniface’s assertion to be simply the natural corollary of the statement that communion with the Church is required for salvation. Boniface was quoting directly from St Thomas Aquinas, in whose writings it was clear that it was simply assumed that because the Church was necessary for salvation and the Pope had jurisdiction over the Church, therefore submission to the Pope was necessary for salvation.
Lionel:
St.Thomas Aquinas held the traditional interpretation of the dogma which does not mention any exceptions.
David Schütz:
Such submission cannot be regarded as a first order requirement for salvation, but is a derivative conclusion based on a certain understanding of the nature of the Church. In essence, the Second Vatican Council recognized a broader definition of the Church based on common faith and baptism rather than on explicit submission to the Roman Pontiff.
This was not entirely new. Already in 1863, Pius IX had taught:
God...in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone to be punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of voluntary fault. But it is also a Catholic dogma, that no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved, and that those who are contumacious against the authority of the same Church (and) definitions and who are obstinately (pertinaciter) separated from the unity of this Church and from the Roman Pontiff, successor of Peter, to whom the custody of the vineyard was entrusted by the Savior, cannot obtain eternal salvation.
Foto








Lionel:
Pius IX is affirming the traditional teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus which does not mention any  visible exceptions to the  Catholic teaching on salvation. He says 'no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved'. This is Feeneyism.
David Schütz:
According to Pius IX therefore it was explicit “contumacious” and “obstinate”opposition to the Petrine ministry which resulted in a loss of salvation, not the involuntary guilt of lack of communion with the Roman Pontiff.
Lionel:
He says 'no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved'. If 'not the involuntary guilt of lack of communion with the Roman Pontiff', was a factor it would be known only to God. So it would not be relevant to the dogma.
David Schütz:
In Unitatis Redintegratiothe Council Fathers explicitly absolved from the guilt of “the sin involved in the separation” all “who are born into these [separated] Communities and who grow up believing in Christ”. In fact, they declared, “the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.”
Lionel:
It does not say that they all are saved and neither does it state that they are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and Baptism' for salvation.The Separated communities do not have Catholic Faith.We have respect and affection for them.We apprecaite their love for Jesus and are aware that the Holy Spirit can also be present in their communities.
David Schütz:
Let us now return to our concentric circles of relationship and ask ourselves about those who have a religious belief, but have not been baptized and who do not believe in Jesus Christ.
Lionel:
'those who have a religious belief, but have not been baptized and who do not believe in Jesus Christ' are on the way to Hell according to Vatican Council II (AG 7).
Here again we have at least three circles of relationship, and these are outlined in the documentNostra Aetate.
  • Our relationship with the Jewish people
  • Our relationship with those who practice Islam
  • Our relationship with the ancient religions of Hinduism and Buddhism. (Nostra Aetate is a very short document and does not attempt to address all non-Christian religions. These latter two may be taken a indicative of the Church’s stance toward all non-Christian religions except Judaism and Isalm).
As with separated Christians, the Church had hitherto interpreted the doctrine extra ecclesiam in terms that brought a judgment of eternal damnation upon non-Christian believers. The Council of Florence in 1442 declared that the Church:
…firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can partake of eternal life, but they will go into eternal fire … unless before the end of life they will have been joined to it [the Church].
This declaration is significant, as it already poses a number of “spheres” of separation from the Church (in reverse order): schismatics, heretics, Jews and pagans.It is interesting that the Muslims are not singled out as a separate group at this date; it is assumed that they are included under“pagans”. Cardinal Cassidy observes that, prior to the Council,“other religions were in a quite different situation [from the Jews]. In Christian tradition they were often considered pagan, or even the fruit of Satan’s presence in the world.”
Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II (AG 7) all need 'faith and Baptism' for salvation. The Jews do not have either. Vatican Council II is telling us, like the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, that all Jews are oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Church before death.
David Schütz:
Nevertheless, the Church’s historical judgement on the Jewish people was extremely negative. This particularly concerned Pope John XXIII, and it was his intention that the Council would make a positive statement concerning the Church’s relation to the Jews.5
As I said earlier, Nostra Aetatebegan life as a section of Lumen Gentium, and was solely concerned with the Jews. By the time the first draft was presented at the second session, it had expanded to include “non-Christian religions” in general, and specifically addressed the Church’s relationship with four religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism.
The document begins by setting forth a basis for our relationship toward other people of faith. It is interesting to note that this basis has a soteriological foundation, that is the common destiny of all humanity in the saving work of Jesus Christ. The Council declared that:
One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men, until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.
Lionel:
However Hell still exists. The Council did not deny it.
David Schütz:
So, without declaring non-Christian religions to be “salvific”,
Lionel: Amen!
David Schütz:
the Council Fathers nevertheless described the existence of other religions, not as the work of Satan, but as a part of God’s “saving design” which he“extend[s] to all men”.
Lionel:
Salvation is offered to all, however it is given to only those who respond and accept Jesus' Death and Resurrection and enter the Catholic Church. They need to follow the Gospel in the Catholic Church.In general  for salavtion all need to be formal members of the Church  Catholics to avoid Hell.
David Schütz:
The second paragraph of Nostra Aetateaddresses
  • Hinduism, in which “men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry”; and
  • Buddhism, which “realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; [and] teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination”
It also goes on to speak of “other religions found everywhere [that] try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites.”
Then it makes what at first seems to be an astonishing statement: “The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions.” There are those who have commented that this statement:
  1. Acknowledges that there is truth and holiness in other religions : (Lionel:Yes, even though their religions are false paths to salvation.)
  2. If there is truth and holiness present in these religions then the Holy Spirit must be present in them (Lionel: They also have 'deficiencies, error and superstition' according to Domus Iesus.Here of course the Holy Spirit cannot be present.)
  3. If this is so, then the grace of Christ must be accessible through these religions in some mysterious manner (Lionel: Yes and this would impel them to enter the Catholic Church to be saved)
  4. These religions are in some sense “salvific”. (Lionel: There could be persons in these religions who are saved through Jesus and the Church.They would be hypothetical cases and so are not exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in 2014 for salvation. So Nostra Aetate here does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It should not be inferred by Schutz that hypothetical cases are defacto, objective cases in the present times. secondly these hypothtical cases who are saved could also be saved with Catholic faith and the baptism of water if God so chooses.)
David Schütz:
Well, as they say, “That’s as may be.” Personally, I do not find this statement at all astonishing, nor does it necessarily imply the conclusions drawn above (although it may well do so).
Lionel:
He has assumed invisible for us perons  are visible in real life.He  then concludes that that these 'isible cases, now in Heaven,  are explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus, according to Vatican Council II. He has used the irrational premise. He assumes that there is someone saved in another religion ( a theoretical case)  and that this person not known to him, is visible in the present times.He  concludes that this visible for us( non exisiting person)  is an exception to the traditional dogmatic understanding of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
The fact of the matter is that it would be a very astonishing thing if, when faced with something that is wholly true and truly holy, the Catholic Church rejected it.
Lionel:
We cannot say that any particular non Catholic is going to be saved, with what is 'good and holy' in his religion and so does not need 'faith and Baptism for salvation. We do not and cannot known any such person.
 David Schütz:
I believe the document is saying simply this: that, to differing degrees, the non-Christian religions and cultures contain “seeds of the word”, that is, elements of truth and holiness that come from humankind’s impulsive search for the divine, a search that originates in the conscience of every human being.
Sister Maria Philomena, M.I.C.M.
Lionel:
Those who are saved with the 'seeds of the word ' are not visible to us in 2014 to be exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney's interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
The Declaration Dominus Iesus,quoting from John Paul II’s encyclical Redemptoris missio, puts it this way:
Thus, the recent Magisterium of the Church has firmly and clearly recalled the truth of a single divine economy: “The Spirit's presence and activity affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions... The Risen Christ ‘is now at work in human hearts through the strength of his Spirit'... Again, it is the Spirit who sows the ‘seeds of the word' present in various customs and cultures, preparing them for full maturity in Christ”(RM §28). While recognizing the historical-salvific function of the Spirit in the whole universe and in the entire history of humanity (RM §28-29), the Magisterium states: “This is the same Spirit who was at work in the incarnation and in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus and who is at work in the Church. He is therefore not an alternative to Christ nor does he fill a sort of void which is sometimes suggested as existing between Christ and the Logos. Whatever the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures and religions, serves as a preparation for the Gospel and can only be understood in reference to Christ, the Word who took flesh by the power of the Spirit ‘so that as perfectly human he would save all human beings and sum up all things’”(RM 29).
Lionel:
 We cannot specify where and when the Spiirt is acting in a person in another religion, who is to be saved. Every one who is in Heaven is a Catholic. He or she is there with 'faith and Baptism' accordfing to Vatican Council II (AG 7)
 
David Schütz:
It would thus be a self-contradiction for Christians to reject something that is self-evidently true or holy, even though it belongs to the teaching of another religion. A good example is that of the Muslim religion, which is treated in the third paragraph of Nostra Aetate. Islam teaches that there is “one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.”7.The Church recognises these teachings as true.

Lionel:
We can recognise the good and holy things in other religions and we love all people because Jesus asks this of us.However  Vatican Council II indicates that all Muslims are oriented to Hell, since they do not have Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, needed for salvation (AG 7).
David Schütz:
The Council Fathers also acknowledged that Muslims revere Christ (though as a prophet, not as the Son of God); honour Mary, His virgin Mother; await the day of judgment and the resurrection from the dead; value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Lionel:
They also have heretical beliefs.
David Schütz:
Therefore, if the Church were to reject Islam holus bolus, it would in fact be rejecting key doctrines and practices within its own tradition.
Lionel:
According to Vartican Council II (AG 7) which is never mentioned by Schutz, Islam is not a path to salvation.
David Schütz:
Thus, in Nostra Aetate, the Council Fathers declare that the Church:
regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.
Lionel:
This passage above is says  what I have mentioned above.Even though some religions 'nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men', this is not enough for salvation.It is not enough for non Catholics to be reconciled with God. So the Catholic Church 'proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself'. Christ in the Catholic Church is needed by all for salvation.
David Schütz:
But Nostra Aetate is chiefly concerned with the relationship between the Church and the Jewish people. It has already been noted that the tradition of the Church has treated Judaism as something altogether different from paganism. It is an historical fact that Christianity had its roots in Judaism, and that an immense proportion of the Christian patrimony is shared with the Jewish people, most obviously in terms of that collection of Holy Scripture which Christians call the “Old Testament” and which Jews call the “Tanakh”. Jesus himself was, of course, a Jew, and the Gospel was first preached by Jews to Jews.
Lionel:
Jews need to accept the Messiah in the only Church He founded, to be saved from Hell, according to the New Testament. This is repeated in Vatican Council II (Nostra Aetate) which says the Church is the new people of God.The Jews were the Chosen People of God now it is Catholics who are the Elect, the Chosen people, the people of the New Covenent.They are  the people who follow  the Jewish Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets.They have the Ark of the Covenant in the tabernacle , the Eucharist. Catholics have the Sacrifice , in the Holy Mass. 
David Schütz:
Bros
Be this as it may, the last 2000 years of Jewish-Christian interaction has been a sorry story of racism and persecution, culminating in the atrocity of the 20thCentury Shoah(or Holocaust).
 



Lionel:
Catholics have also been persecuted.
David Schütz:
In one stroke, the Second Vatican Council sought to reverse this tragic history and to set Jewish-Christian relations on a new footing and a new path. The following declarations were made:
  • God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues…
  • Lionel: They are on the path to Hell according to Vatican Council II (AG 7) since they have not joined the Catholic Church which is the continuation of the Jewish Religion.
  • What happened in [Christ’s] passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.
  • Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures…
  • (Lionel :Although 'the Church is the new people of God'...
  • the Church…decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
David Schütz:
Today,Nostra Aetatecontinues to beg certain questions about the degree to which other religions are “salvific”
Lionel:
No where in Nostra Aetate is it said that Judaism is a path to salvation complementary to the Catholic Church or that Jews do not need to convert. No where is it said that there are known exceptions in the present times to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
Lumen Gentium noted that any who are ignorant of the truth of the Church’s claims and yet seek to follow God with a sincere heart may possibly be saved,
Lionel:
 Lumen Gentium no where says that these persons are known to us in the present times and so would be an exception to all needing to be formal members of the Church. Lumen Gentium no where contradicts Fr.Leonard Feeney on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. 
The Sisters, Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary on the Profession Day of Sister Mary Imelda, September 8, 2014. Saint Benedict Center, Still River MA www.saintbenedict.com facebook.com/SistersMICM
David Schütz:

but this is a far cry from declaring that other religions themselves are paths to salvation—even if they contain “seeds of the word” and elements of truth and holiness. Dominus Iesus rejected as “contrary to the faith” the notion of the Church
as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.
Nevertheless, the question of salvific efficacy remains especially in relation to Judaism (which Dominus Iesus did not intend to address).
Lionel:
Vatican Council II is clear in Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 that all Jews need faith and baptism to avoid Hell.This is the general teaching.If there are any exceptions it would be known to God.There are none known to us.
David Schütz:
Given that the Second Vatican Council declared that God has neither“repented” of the covenant he made with the Jewish people at Sinai nor rejected them as his people, then the old doctrine of supercessionism—which taught that the Church has completely superceded the Jews as the new people of God—must be regarded to have been repudiated.
Lionel:
Vatican Concil II says that the Church is the new people of God and for salvation all need faith and baptism (NA ,AG 7,LG 14 ).It affirms Jesus' eternal covenent with Catholics.
Foto: Finishing the signs for the annual Bazaar fundraiser at St. Benedict Center on October 11. Next come the apple pies!
David Schütz:
This however leads to the much more difficult question of whether saving grace is available to the Jewish people through the Sinaitic Covenant, or whether in fact they must be incorporated into the “New” Covenant in Christ in order to be saved.13Some have gone as far as to assert that Christians should not proclaim the gospel to Jewish people. This is a live and current discussion in the Church.
So, is there salvation outside the Church?
Lionel:
Since we do not know any one saved outside the Church, we cannot  name any such person.The Council does not state that there are known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
Vatican II certainly advanced the question to a new level. Dominus Iesuswisely left the paradox in tension, saying:
This doctrine [“extra ecclesiam nulla salus”] must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation.
Lionel:
This is affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It is Feeneyism.
But I leave the final word in the story to our late, great John Paul II, who said in his encyclical Redemptoris missio:
There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God, realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: “No one, therefore, can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the Holy Spirit”.
 
Lionel:
And trhis must not be posited as an exception to all needing to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.-Lionel Andrades
Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position -2


 

Rome will change when the SSPX realizes that Vatican Council II is Feeneyite

An SSPX (Resistance) priest has said that there can be no agreement with the Vatican until Rome changes.
For me, Rome will change, Rome will have to change - when the SSPX, and Catholics in general, realize that Vatican Council II is Feeneyite.
-Lionel Andrades

Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position -2


Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position

 

There is no known exception in 2014 to 'Feeneyism'- all need the baptism of water for salvation.There are no known,visible exceptions

 

Those who support Fr.Leonard Feeney are still not pointing it out to all that salvation in Heaven is invisible for us


How can the dead be exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney ?

 

Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position -2

David Schütz:
We will talk more about this when we come to discuss the relationship of other religions to the Church. But for the moment, an essential question in regard to the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church is “what and where is the Church?”. So long as the Church was completely and solely identified with the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, there could be little doubt as to the salvation (or, rather, not) of non-Catholics.
Lionel:
'So long as the Church was completely and solely identified with the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, there could be little doubt as to the salvation (or, rather, not) of non-Catholics.' Agreed 'there could be little doubt as to the salvation (or, rather, not) of non-Catholics', this was the teaching also of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
David Schütz:
When Pope Boniface VIII issued his bull “Unam Sanctam” he had added that “to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is altogether necessary for salvation.” Yet in the 1992 Catechism we find no such statement.
Lionel:
It is indicated in Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and Baptism'(AG 7) for salvation.Ad Gentes 7 is Feeneyite.
David Schütz:
Here we find a crucial change in ecclesiology which emerged from Vatican II. Speaking of the documents of Vatican II, Pope John Paul II, in his 1995 encyclical Ut Unum Sint, said:
These are extremely important texts for ecumenism. It is not that beyond the boundaries of the Catholic community there is an ecclesial vacuum. Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities.
Lionel:
Elements of great value are also found in the other Christian Communities as a possibility known to God.De facto there are no concrete cases. We cannot name any one as such who will be saved without being a formal member of the Catholic Church. Here there is a mix up by Schutz on what is accepted in theory and in reality, subjective and objective.
David Schütz:
In essence, Vatican II presents an ecclesiology and missiology of “communion”,envisaged in a series of concentric circles of relatedness, in the following order:
Lionel:
No it does not, since Schutz still has to show us where does Vatican Council II contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Where is there known salvation outside the Church? If there is no known salvation outside the Church then there is no change in ecclesiology.
David Schütz:
  • The Catholic Church comprising of those local churches in direct and visible communion with the Bishop of Rome, in which “that unity which Christ bestowed on His Church from the beginning … subsists … as something she can never lose”4. (We will come back to this word “subsists” later.)
  • Lionel:
  • This does not contradict the traditional understanding of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
  • David Schütz:
  • Those Churches, predominately Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, which “although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy”(Dominus Iesus calls these Churches “true particular churches”).
  • Lionel:
  • And their members still need to convert into the Catholic Church since they do not have Catholic Faith ( Ad Gentes 7)
  • David Schütz:
  • Those “ecclesial communities” (chiefly the Reformation and more recent Christian communities of the West) which, due to loss of apostolic succession, do not have a valid priesthood or a valid eucharist and are thus “not Churches in the proper sense”.
  • Lionel:
  • Their members need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation since they do not have Catholic Faith (AG 7)
  • David Schütz:
  • Despite this negative judgement of the ecclesial nature of Protestant communities, it is worth quoting at length what Vatican II had to say of the existence within these communities of the true means of saving grace:
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
Lionel:
'significant elements and endowments' is a possibility but it is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
Lionel:
As a possibility in rare cases and known only to God . In general their members need to formally enter the Church for salvation (AG 7,LG 14).
David Schütz:
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
Lionel:
In general they all need to convert into the Church for salvation and if there is someone saved in another religion, if it is the action of the Holy Spirit, it would be unknown to us and known only to God. So it would not be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
 We will go on in a moment to consider the place of the other religions in this “concentric circle” of relatedness, but for the moment, we must acknowledge that the Council Fathers saw their commitment to Christian unity on the basis of God’s primary gift of communion in common faith in Christ and in the sacrament of baptism.
Lionel:
Communion, with an ecumenism of return, since there are no known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus mentioned in Vatican Council II.Every one needs to enter the Church for salvation (AG 7)
David Schütz:
Unitatis Redintegratiostated clearly and unambiguously that “[all] men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect”, and that“it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
Lionel:
It does not state that they are in full communion with the Church and will be saved in general.Those who are in 'imperfect communion with the Church' and who are saved are unknown to us, they are not visible to us .So they cannot be explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus as Schutz infers.
David Schütz:
This remarkable statement also implies that wherever there is valid baptism and true faith, there is also justification, and thus salvation, even outside the visible boundaries of full communion with the Catholic Church.(p.5)
Lionel:
Yes and this person would be a Catholic before going to Heaven.
So we have Ad Gentes 7 saying all need faith and baptism for salvation, objectively every one needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell and we do not know of any exceptions in real life .So those saved in 'imperfect communion with the Church' (UR 3) etc are not exceptions.They cannot be seen by us in real life.There is no known salvation outside the Catholic Church mention in Vatican Council II-Lionel Andrades