Monday, July 13, 2015

On ecumenism, other religions, religious liberty, proclaiming the Good News and evangelisation is B an exception to A for you ? It is not for me

Immagine correlata

Sedevacantists and traditionalists should check the websites they follow and ask  where is B an exception to A.They will find many examples of this irrationality in the interpretation of Vatican Council II, I said in the last blog post. Since they interpret ecumenism, inter religious dialogue, religious liberty and  proclamation  of the Good News and evangelisation irrationally. For them B is an exception to A.

If B was not an exception to A, then they would be proclaiming the Good News like the saints and popes over the centuries.
The saints taught that most people are on the way to Hell. Vatican Council II says the same thing in Ad Gentes 7 (A)
A says all need faith and baptism for salvation. The passage B, when it is not an exception to A, makes Ad Gentes 7 Feeneyite! It is in agreement with the traditional, strict interpretation of the dogma on salvation.We then have the Good News which is traditional. B is not an exception to A.This is how I interpret Vatican Council II. Every one needs to believe in Jesus in the Catholic Church, as Catholics, to be saved from Hell. Jesus Died and is Risen for all. For all to receive this salvation, they need to enter the Catholic Church and live the Gospel according to the teachings of the only Church Jesus founded and which is His Mystical Body.

So in  evangelisation I would  say Ad Gentes 7 says all need to believe in Jesus with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation ( to avoid Hell). Most people are on the way to Hell, since they are not formal members of the Catholic Church (AG 7). Most people die without 'faith and baptism'(AG 7). This is Vatican Council II. B is not an exception to A.So it is important to evangelise, to proclaim the Gospel knowing most people are on the way to Hell in the present times.

Since B is not an exception to A for me, members of the other religions are on the way to Hell, since they do not have 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).B refers to invisible cases in 2015. So they are not exceptions to the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church, on non Catholics needing to convert into the Church to go to Heaven.

In a secular state non Catholics are free to follow their religion. They were free also during the time of the papal states.But morally I would say that all need to convert into the Catholic Church, since there are no exceptions in Vatican Council II to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.B is not an exception to A.So non Catholics need to convert into the only true religion, to avoid the fires of Hell. Also all political legislation must have, as its scope and goal, the teachings of the Catholic Church, the Church in which God wants all people to be united (CCC 845), the only Ark of Noah that saves in the Flood (CCC 845).
Immagine correlata
So how you would interpret the A and B passages in Vatican Council II determines your position on ecumenism, other religions, religious liberty, proclaiming the Good News and evangelisation. It determines your position on Catholic doctrine.It determines if you are a liberal or a traditional Catholic, a heretic or believer.
-Lionel Andrades

For you proclaiming the Good News would be with B as an exception to A ?

Sedevacantists and traditionalists should check the websites they follow and ask where is B an exception to A

In Ecumenism B is not an exception to A. UR 3 does not contradict AG 7


From the outset the Virgin Mary reportedly warned, at 
Medjugorje in Hercegovina, that her apparitions 
there would come under satanic attack.
Currently, they are in  the midst of a storm 
about their legitimacy.
"Whatever be the place where I appear, 
and where my Son comes with me, Satan
 also comes," she said back in 1987 (the
 apparitions began in 1981).
Two years before, she allegedly 
intoned, at a time of  upheaval with an
 antagonistic bishop, whose authority 
was later removed by  Saint John Paul II, 
that "Satan has taken away one part
 of the plan and he  wants to possess it."
"This," she had 
said, "is the time
 of the devil (1982).
 reigns over 
the whole world."
That was more 
 three decades 

"Satan is strong  and is waiting to test 
each one of  you," she allegedly also told
 seers, for  those who subscribe to the
 messages, as we do, though we will obey
 final dictates from the Vatican.
"A great  struggle is about to unfold," she
 said in 1981 -- just weeks after the 
apparitions began.
 "A struggle between my Son and Satan."

August 11, 1984, "pray, because Satan
 wishes to complicate my plans still 
On January 14, 1985, the Virgin,
 known at Medjugorje as the "Queen
  of Peace," told a seer  named Vicka
 Ivanković (in this territory that was  
home to Catholics, Orthodox, and 
Muslims, who were soon at war with 
 each other), 
"My dear children, Satan is strong. He 
wishes with all his strength to destroys 
my plans."

He would  attempt to  disperse
 them, she warned; he was 
attempting  to lure them with 
money -- material  things.
 He would be relentless, it was
 implied; in 1987 she  allegedly
 told visionary Mirjana Soldo, 
"You permitted, without noticing,
 his influences on you and he
 drives you on." In fact this seer 
was to report  having an
 apparition of an incredibly 
handsome man who promised 
her success "in love and life" if 
she followed him; it was the devil.
"Pray, because you are in great
 temptation and danger
 because the world and material 
goods lead you into slavery," 
Blessed Mary, known in 
Croatian as "Gospa,"
said to another visionary, Ivanka  
Ivanković, in 1989.
"Satan is active in this plan."
"Dear children," she further and 
reportedly said again 
in July of 1984, "these days Satan 
wants to frustrate 
my plans."
This was the constant struggle: 
unfolding of her plan -- 
what she called God's Plan -- 
against relentless onslaughts
 of the deceiver. 
There were attempts, even in
 Rome, to shut Medjugorje 
Clearly, she indicated that her
 plans could face defeat 
and overcome  attack with the 
prayers of believers.
Again in 1984 -- thirty-one years
 ago -- at a time of great 
controversy  with the diocese and
 a commission -- she had
 been recorded in the archives as
 having said,"Satan continues
 to hinder my plans" -- a battle that
, for those many who subscribe
 to the apparitions, is  obviously 
continuing (and reaching a

That Christmas, in 1984, she 
had said that "Satan wanted in
 a special way to spoil God's plans" 
-- which she  described as 
"salvation  of the world."
 It was stiff, powerful, 
and largely unreported language. 
"Satan is working  underhandedly 
against this parish," she was 
quoted as  stating in 1985, at  
the start of the new year.
"Pray that Satan retreats from 
the parish and from every 
individual who comes into the
 parish," she added, for our 
discernment, in July of 1985.
The devil wanted to work yet 
harder, the Blessed Mother 
said, now  that they knew 
he was at  work. She advised
 them  to fast and wear blessed 
In 1985 -- soon after an attempt to 
close down the apparitions 
fell through -- she allegedly said that 
"Satan's plan has  failed." 
We report. You discern.
"Thank you for all the  sacrifices," 
she said that  September. 
"I wish  to tell you, dear children,
 to renew the messages  which 
I am giving  you. Especially 
live the fast, because by 
fasting you will achieve and 
 cause me the joy  of the whole 
plan, which God is planning 
here in Medjugorje, being 
"You know, dear children, that 
with  your help I am  able to 
accomplish  everything and 
force Satan not  to be 
seducing you to evil and 
to  remove himself from
 this place," she was recorded
 as saying in 1986 -- now five years 
after the initiation  of the 
 "Dear children, Satan is lurking 
for every individual.
 Especially in everyday affairs, he 
wants to spread confusion among
each of you."

And so it went -- warning  after 
warning   that the evil one was 
on a tear. 
The Virgin  cautioned seers 
constantly not  to fall for  his 
temptations, to not let him 
"sway" them as  if they were
 dangling in the wind.
 The warnings were implicitly 
for everyone who read the
 messages. "Little children," 
she said in 1988, "do not be
 afraid because  I am with 
you even when you think 
there is no way out and 
that Satan is in control." 
That  same year she further
reminded them that "I am your 
mother and I want to warn you 
that Satan wants to destroy
 everything we have started, 
so pray a lot."
The devil, she added, wanted
 to destroy  "everything in you." 
He lurked on the "desert" just 
outside of the "oasis," she said. 
She called  Medjugorje  an 
"oasis of peace," and said that 
God had plans there unique
 in the history of apparitions.
They were remarkable messages
 to seers who at the time were 
still in  their  teen years.
If it was a time of special -- 
unprecedented -- graces, s
he said, it was also a time when 
"Satan is very active." He would
 become more so.
In 1990 (September 25) -- now
 nearly a decade  after the 
onset -- the Blessed  Mother 
said that "Satan wishes to destroy
 my plans and hinder  the desires 
which the heavenly Father wants
 to realize here."
And so it went -- on a constant basis, 
like hand-to-hand combat -- for 
years and then decades. She was
 coming so often, she explained, 
because the world was on the 
brink of tremendous,
unprecedented  danger.

The warnings were not only for 
the apparition site  but for the 
Church and the world at large.
"Dear children," she said on 
January 25, 1991, "Today, as
 never before, I call you to pray 
for  peace. Satan is strong and
 he seeks to destroy  not only 
human life but also nature
 and the planet  on which 
you are  living.
"Therefore, dear children,
 pray to be  protected 
through prayer, with  the 
blessing of God's peace. 
God has sent me to help you. 
Persevere in praying the 
Even the Rosary itself can 
achieve miracles in the world 
and in your  life. I bless you 
and I will stay with you  as 
long as  God wills. Thank 
you for being  faithful to my 
presence here. Thank you  for
 your response to my call."

Fr. Dwight Longenecker - My Medjugorje Story

Fr Dwight Longenecker My Medjugorje Story

I was an Anglican priest living in England, in 1985 when I was invited by a group of Anglicans and Catholics to visit Medjugorje. I didn’t want to go. Being a former Evangelical-fundamentalist I wasn’t too keen on apparitions of the Blessed Virgin. I opted out. They insisted. I dug in my heels. They said someone else would pay for it. I didn’t want to go. They cajoled and twisted my arm until I said ‘yes’.



Sedevacantists and traditionalists should check the websites they follow and ask where is B an exception to A

Immagine correlataSedevacantists and traditionalists should check the websites they follow and ask  where is B an exception to A.They will find many examples of this irrationality in the interpretation of Vatican Council II.

For example Lumen Gentium 8 'subsist it', can it be exception to the orthodox passages in Ad Gentes 7 and Unitatitis Redintigratio 3 ? No! Yet this is the misake made by bishops and priests.
They should also ask  where in the writings of the Church Fathers, Church Councils and saints before 1949 is it mentioned that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance, refer to explicit cases and that they are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? There are none. This is also a common error on Catholic websites.
-Lionel Andrades

In Ecumenism B is not an exception to A. UR 3 does not contradict AG 7


The Council of Trent does not mention the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood as being explicit or as being explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus

In Ecumenism B is not an exception to A. UR 3 does not contradict AG 7

What is your concept of Ecumenism according to Vatican Council 2 ?. Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 say all need 'faith and baptism' .  Orthodox Christians, Protestants and other Christians do not have Catholic Faith. They are not in the Catholic Church.
Here is Ad Gentes .
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. -Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II.
If Ad Gentes  7 is referred to as A then there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict A.
If Unitatis Redintegratio 3 ( imperfect communion with the Church) is referred to as B, then B does not contradict A since we do not know  any one in 2015 saved 'in imperfect communion with the Church'.I cannot meet any one on the streets of Rome today who has been saved or is going to be saved in imperfect communion with the Church.
Aside from Ad Gentes 7 there are orthodox passages also in other texts of Vatican Council II which call for an ecumenism of return.
Here is an orthodox passage in Unitatis Redintegratio 3
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.-Unitatis Redintegratio 3
The following passage also from UR 3 let us refer to as B.It can be confusing if the invisible-visible, implicit-explicit , in theory-in practise distinction is not made.
For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.-UR 3
B is not an exception to the orthodox passage in Ad Gentes 7 or Unitatis Redintegratio (UR 3).Since B  refers to hypothetical cases for us. If such a case existed in 2015 it would only be known to God. This person would be invisible for us.
So there is nothing in UR 3 to contradict Ad Gentes 7( all need faith and baptism) , the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441) or the orthodox passage in Unitatis Redintegratio itself.
There are no exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to the traditional teaching on an ecumenism of return.
There would be an exception only if you considered B as explicit and so an exception to A.If B is not considered hypothetical but objective and seen in the flesh in 2015, then it seems an exception to the orthodox passages.Then it is a rejection of an ecumenism of return.
If you say B is an exception to A your assuming there are exceptions, there are explicit cases.They are known, objective seen in the flesh in 2015, of Christians saved in imperfect communion with the Church.They are Christians saved without being formal members of the Catholic Church.This would be fantasy.It would be irrational.
For me B is not an exception to A. B refers to invisible cases.If they existed they would be known only  to God. So the ecumenism of Vatican Council II is stil traditional for me. The ecclesiology on ecumenism has not changed with the Council.
In whatever way others may interpret Vatican Council II, for me, AG 7 refers to an ecumenism of return.This view is supported by other orthodox passages in UR 3. My view is rational. It does not infer that I can see or personally know in 2015 persons saved; who are now in Heaven without  Catholic Faith. I cannot see or meet anyone today who is in Heaven without  the Sacraments and the faith and moral teachings of the Catholic Church.
The B is an exception to A view is irrational. We cannot see the dead.
All Orthodox Christians, Protestants and other Christians need Catholic Faith (AG 7) to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
For salvation Pentecostals need to enter the Catholic Church , they need to be formal members of the Church ( AG 7, Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441).This is Vatican Council II and traditional ecumenism.This was the teaching for centuries in the only Church Jesus founded outside of which there is no salvation.
-Lionel Andrades

For you proclaiming the Good News would be with B as an exception to A ?

Bishops Williamson, Pirvanus,Dolan and Sanborn are under no compulsion to say B is an exception to A

So can the Traditional Latin Mass be offered by priests who consider B not an exception to A?

Catholic priests are only allowed to offer Mass if they say B is an exception to A