Tuesday, June 12, 2012

The good bishop needs to revisit the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus

There have been some interesting comments on Rorate Caeli on the post For the record: the Trinity Sunday sermon of Bishop Tissier de Mallerais"

beng said...
Seriously?!
He's equating SSPX with St. Basil and the current Church with the pneumatomachian??!
Dear bishop. There's a huge difference. St. Basil was IN the Church and the pneumatomachians were OUTSIDE the Church.
But SSPX now is OUTSIDE the Church and the current Church, with all its chaff, is THE CHURCH.
The good bishop needs to revisit the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Revist the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

Even if he did revisit it alongwith the other bishops they would still assume that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are known to us in the present times. So they are explicit exceptions to the dogma.



JMR said...
In a Church that no longer upholds the teaching that "outside the Church there is no Salvation" why does it matter who is in and who is outside the Church. It is the SSPX that still hold that teaching.
It is the SSPX that still holds the teaching?

How can they still hold the teaching when they believe that there are defacto, explcit known exceptions to the dogma.

If they realized that we do not know these cases on earth then it would mean they accept the literal interpretation of the dogma.

Presently they assume possibilities (invincible ignorance, baptism of desire etc) are realities in the present time.

When they accept the literal interpretation of the dogma they can then affim the Faith with respect to religious liberty.

Since the SSPX is confused on this subject religious liberty in Vatican Council II seems confusing.

Carl said:
When did the Second Vatican Council deny Christ the King? It explicitly said, "[The Council] leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ" (DH 1). Does that sound like "the denial of Christ the King, the refusal of Christ the King"? The good bishop harms the mission of the Society and the Church with such histrionics.

The problem with the Council isn't that it denies Christ the King, but that it uses a number of expressions that can be manipulated to justify just about anything on a practical level. It issues a blank check for making up new religions and calling them "Catholic." The Society is right rely on tradition and to condemn these new religions and is also right to criticise the Council for issuing these blank checks. But it is wrong (and worthy of ridicule) to accuse the Second Vatican Council of heresies similar to Arianism, Nestorianism and Pneumatomachianism.

I agree with the Bishop when he says "let us not think that because Rome is offering us today an agreement, an official position in the Church, that we should give up proclaiming these strong truths." There is no reason why official recognition should change the society. What concerns me is the gross lack of clarity in understanding the relationship between the AMBIGUITY of the Council and the ERROR that practically procedes from this ambiguity.

Bishop Tissier de Mallerais cannot find any textual justification for his absolutely absurd claim that the Second Vatican Council denies and refuses Christ the King. Searching the conciliar texts one finds not a denial of the social reign of Jesus Christ, but rather a disturbing absence of the concept. By definition, it cannot be affirmed or denied if it is never mentioned. That it is not mentioned is problem enough without making false claims of a denial.

New Catholic said...

Carl, that is a very pertinent observation. We dislike the Second Vatican Council for many reasons, but Christ the King and the concept of the Kingship of Christ are repeated almost ad nauseam in several of its documents. One may say that specific matters mentioned at some of the documents (for instance, interreligious dialogue) are themselves responsible for opening the gate to disdain for this concept, but it is repeated again and again there, we must admit in all honesty.

If they would revisit the dogma and realize that there is implicit and explicit baptism of desire then they could revisit Vatican Council II.
-Lionel Andrades 
 
Monday, June 11, 2012
Bishop Tissier de Mallerais the fourth heresy is the explicit known to us baptism of desire: this is the SSPX error in interpreting the Council and other magisterial documents
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/06/bishop-tissier-de-mallerais-fourth.html

NO ECCLESIOLOGY OF COMMUNION IN VATICAN COUNCIL II

The Eucharistic Ecclesiology of Communion 50 years after Vatican Council II was the theology seminar at the International  Eucharistic Congress in Dublin even though there is no supporting text in Vatican Council II.

There is no text  which states Protestant communities and Orthodox Churches are equal paths to salvation as the Catholic Church or that these Christians do not have to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (to avoid Hell).

Yet the liberal administration in the U.K mention an ecclesiology of communion. This is a negation of Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says  all need Catholic Faith for salvation . This message is also repeated in Lumen Gentiuim 14,Vatican Council II.

 Vatican Council II is saying outside the church there is no salvation.Vatican Council II is affirming an exclusivist ecclesiocentrism. Lumen Gentiuim 16 (invincible ignorance and a good conscience) are not exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 since we do not know any such explicit case on earth. Similarly the ‘seeds of the Word’(Dei Verbum) are unknown to us for it to be considered an exception to the dogma on salvation and Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7).

So there is no text in Vatican Council II which could support an ecclesiology of communion with the Christian communities and deny exclusive salvation being there in only the Catholic Church.
-Lionel Andrades

The Eucharistic Ecclesiology of Communion Fifty Years after Vatican II

6th - 9th June 2012

The year 2012 marks the 50th anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Council that so strongly underlined the ecclesiology of communion. The theology symposium examines the status questionis fifty years on. Expert contributions from scholars across the disciplines of theology (scripture, systematics, moral theology, liturgy, pastoral studies, missiology and ecumenics) will explore the question: how goes it today with the ecclesiology of communion in aspects?

There will be plenary sessions, seminars and liturgies.The symposium is aimed at participants who have at least a graduate level (or equivalent) of study in theology.

There will be visits to significant places of interest in Ireland.

The morning on Day one will be dedicated to biblical, systematic and moral explorations. In the afternoon there will be a series of more focussed seminars on: Communion and the Word; Communion and Social Justice, Economics, Politics, Communion and Art/Architecture/music, Mission/Evangelisation, Communion and Ecology, the theme of Communion in the Irish tradition. Peace/Violence/Reconciliation/Healing of Memory. It will be a day that will open up many perspectives and avenues for theological reflection.

Day two will be dedicated to Ecumenism. Major figures in ecumenism will deliver papers. There will be round-table discussion and dialogue with the hall.

In the evening there will be a banquet dinner in the Pugin Hall in Maynooth.

Day three will be dedicated to the missionary and pastoral themes, pulling the various strands of the symposium together. A paper will be delivered by the expert missiologist, Rev. Dr. Michael McCabe, SMA, and Cardinal Oscar Andrés Rodríguez Maradiaga. This will be followed by dialogue among the participants on the nature of missionary communion in the face of the challenges of the New Evangelisation.http://www.iec2012.ie/index.jsp?p=108&n=147






The 50th International Eucharistic Congress (IEC) underway in Dublin, Ireland is based on dissent and heresy by the established Roman Catholic Church.


The Catholic Archbishop of Dublin,Diarmuid Martin on the Second Day of the International Eucharistic Congress has indicated that the Eucharist in the Catholic Church is not needed for salvation for all people including Christian communities;Protestants.He contradicts Ecclesia di Eucarestia of Pope John Paul II.

He suggests that Anglicans  and other Christian communities do not need to receive the Eucharist in the Catholic Church for salvation.

The Archbishop is also saying that Catholic Faith, which includes receiving the Eucharist, is not needed for salvation and that Christian communities can be saved in their respective religions without entering the Catholic Church.

He is denying Vatican Council II which states all  need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (AG 7). He is also denying the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which specified that Protestants need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.

He has called for an evangelization based on Jesus without the Catholic Church.

The archbishop has contradicted Dominus Iesus which says salvation is available for all however to receive it all need to enter the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church 848 says all need to enter the Church as though a door and cites Ad Gentes 7 (Catholic Faith and the baptism of water-not just the baptism of water ).CCC 845 says God the Father wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church.

According to Vatican Council II, the dogma on salvation, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other magisterial documents the Anglican Archbishop of Dublin who addressed the conference is oriented to Hell unless he converts into the Catholic Church.

The Theology Section of the Conference features an Ecclesiology of Communion. It is assumed that the Church no more teaches exclusive ecclesiocentrism since those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desie are explicit exceptions to the dogma.- and of course in Ireland they know these explicit cases in real life for them to be exceptions to the dogma.

Traditionalists in Ireland and elsewhere do not object to this ecclesiology since they too are (seemingly ?!) familiar with visible cases of the baptism of desire and they know people on earth, may be in Dublin, saved in invincible ignorance on earth and in Heaven.

A leader of the Catholic Focolare Movement gave her testimony on this ecclesiology and why Christian communities do not have to convert into the Catholic Church as long as they are baptised! (http://www.iec2012.ie/it/cat_news.jsp?i=1629&p=1001&n=1016 )
-Lionel Andrades
____________________________________________________


Congress Explores Communion Through Baptism

Dublin Welcomes Pilgrims for Second Day of International Event

By Ann Schneible

DUBLIN, Ireland, JUNE 11, 2012 (Zenit.org).- The 50th International Eucharistic Congress (IEC) explored the themes of baptism and ecumenism today, with addresses delivered by both Catholic and Anglican archbishops.

The IEC, under way through Sunday, explored today the theme: "Exploring and Celebrating Our Communion through Baptism." Two of the main speakers of the day were Catholic Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin and his Anglican counterpart, Archbishop Michael Jackson, who addressed the theme of baptism specifically within the context of working together ecumenically toward peace and renewal in the Church.

Archbishop Jackson explained at a press conference today that "one of the themes that comes through very strongly is that theme of pilgrimage. I think the number of people who come from many parts of the world and many parts of Ireland, both as participants and as volunteers, this is something which I think brings us to a new place, and holds us there in good faith."

"The opportunity has been opened up through this conference," he continued, "for the involvement and the participation and the contribution of people of traditions beyond the Roman Catholic Church. I think there is something which is of great enrichment to us who have been invited to be part of that."

Catholic Archbishop Diarmuid Martin expanded upon the statements made by Archbishop Jackson, speaking about the importance for uniting in common purpose. "The Church of Ireland and the Roman Catholic Church," the archbishop explained, "and the other main Christian churches in Ireland, are facing many of the same challenges in what we call 'evangelizing,' in bringing the message of Jesus Christ to young people. We are all aware of the fact that we need to find new structures, new methods for that evangelization."

"I think there is a real temptation by people," Archbishop Martin continued, "faced with the rapidity of change, with all of the refuges that people take, to simply say that there is nothing I can do, and let the thing take over. We are in a situation today where we will not rebuild [or] renew the Church by simply letting it take over."-Zenit News.
_________________________________________________

About Us

The 50th International Eucharistic Congress (trading as IEC 2012) is a company limited by guarantee and registered in Ireland in 2010. Registered number 482838.

The company was established for the purposes of preparing for the 50th International Eucharistic Congress which will take place in Ireland in June 2012 (See: What is a Eucharistic Congress)

In order to achieve this purpose, IEC 2012 is committed to:

•preparing and promoting a programme of catechesis and evangelisation in advance of the Congress

supporting the development of pastoral structures which will serve as a basis for ongoing faith development after the Congress

•designing, publishing and licensing a corporate logo and such other materials as may be necessary to promote the Congress and its main object;

•arranging for the hire of venues for the hosting of the various events of the Congress;

recruiting and training staff and volunteers who will undertake the preparation and execution of the Congress and who will continue to offer service in the mission of Church into the future;

•providing material and spiritual services for those who participate in the Congress; and

•making appropriate arrangements to raise the funds necessary to meet the costs involved in carrying out these objectives

The Board of IEC2012 is chaired by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin. The other board members are: Ms. Anne Young, Ms. Barbara Gilroy, Mr. Michael Duffy, Fr. Ciarán O’Carroll and Fr. Kevin Doran. The company secretary is Mr. E.B. O’Connor.