Wednesday, May 28, 2014

Conversation with an ecumenist

Ok Lionel.
Thanks for the update.
You have a good zeal that God has given you as a gift.
However, it turns out that the view that all non-Catholics are not
going to Heaven,

All non Catholics are not going to Heaven unless they convert into the
Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism' (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council
II etc).
The Protestants and Pentecostals whom you admire teach that all non
Catholics are not going to Heaven unless they beleive in Jesus.So
there is a condition there too.

denied by many popes throughout Catholicism's history, including all
the modern ones; the Vatican II,

Vatican Council II (AG 7) says all need faith and baptism for
salvation. AG 7 is placed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church
under the title Outside the Church No Salvation (846). This could be
denied by the popes since they have not affirmed it clearly in
public.Though this view is supported by Pope John Paul II in Dominus
Iesus 20 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church(845,846).

the catechism,

CCC (845,846,1257). All need the baptism of water for
salvation ( CCC 1257) and there are no known exceptions.It is possible
that a non Catholic could be saved outside the Church, God being God,
however this would not be known to us. This is hypothetical for us and
so does not contradict AG 7, CCC 846,1257( the Church knows of means
to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water ) etc.

modern faithful Catholics like Peter Kreeft, Scott Hahn,
I have appreciated the writings of Peter Kreeft and Scott Hahn
as apologists.I was fortunate to read them about 12 years back in the
library of the University Pontifical Regina Apostolorum of the
Leginaries of Christ ,in Rome. Peter Kreeft seemed to affirm the
traditional teaching on salvation.
I recall : 'there could be only one wife to marry, water falls in only
one direction, there is only one formula for Coke/Pepsi and there is
only one true Church for salvation' he said.( I don't remember the
exact words off hand).

Benedict G, EWTN.

Same as above

Fr Freeney was excommunicated for interpreting that as only the roman
rite, which ironically he was removed from, which is highly humorous.
Fr.Leonard Feeney was not a Cushingite.It was Cardinal Cushing who
assumed there was known salvation in the present times , outside the
Catholic Church. He inferred there were exceptions to the traditional
interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.You and I do not know any

Cushingism is heresy. It is denying an ex cathedra dogma defined three
times.If Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for not saying that
being saved with the baptism of desire is a known, visible in the
flesh, exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma on
exclusive salvation in the Church, then this was a great injustice
done to him. Since it is common knowledge that we cannot see the
dead.So how can these cases be inferred as exceptions ?

Also what the holy spirit is telling people with prophetic words
today contradicts that.

The Holy Spirit can be present in Christian communities ( non Catholics).
I recall the Reading at Holy Mass in Italian yesterday. St.Peter told the
jailor all he had to do for salvation was believe in Jesus. That's
all! And the jailer believed in Jesus and he and his family were
baptized. So baptism in a community was important for St.Peter. It was
not just believing in Jesus.

Jesus tells us that on the Last Day there will be many who will say
Lord we prophesized in your name, we did miracles in your name and
Jesus would tell know the rest.

It is to place the catholic church over Christ, and Catholic doctrines
over the greatest commandment.

The Bible says that the Church is the Mystical Body of
Jesus.We cannot separate Jesus from the Church. Neither can we
separate the Kingdom from the Church.

It is a false interpretation of the citations that some teach, and
does not triangulate with the things that the church is more certain
In addition the fruit is clearly stress, not peace; it is not unity,
there is no power behind it, since the great majority of the miracles
are occurring in places where God's love is placed above our writings
about God's love.

To work miracles and to remain outside the only Church which Jesus
founded is not unity.

The view that the Roman rite is the only thing Jesus is doing, is not
only obviously wrong, but there is a demonic group behind it. People
who have discernment of spirits gifts can attest to this.

Are you referring to the Tridentine Rite, the Traditional Latin Mass?
To be saved one needs to be a Catholic irrespective of the Rite of the
Mass he attends to.One needs to die without mortal sin on the soul.
I attend the Novus Ordo Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass .

Further is clearly not Biblical. Jesus just said to receive Him, not
that you had to be a member of a particular church organization -- but
in love with Him.

Jesus has said in John 3:5 that all need the baptism of water for
salvation. He has said in Mark 16: 16 that he who does not believe
will be condemned.
Those are very strong words. He who does not believe will be condemned.
Jesus was talking about belief in Him within a particular community.
That commnity was the Catholic Church. The doctrines of that community
are still the same as those of the Catholic Church. There was no
Pentecostal or Protestant community there with the Sola Scripture
doctrine. There was no Jehowah Witness community there at that time
teaching that Jesus and St. Michael the Archangel were the same

There is nothing higher than God, including Catholicism.

The Theosophists and others like them reject religion and say there is
nothing higher than Truth.Though they do not define what is truth for
them.Catholicism is a means to reach God. God also saves through the
Sacraments in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the means
God the Father has chosen for the unity and salvation of all people
(CCC 845). The Catholic Church is not just one means to reach God it
is the ONLY way to go to Heaven.

That's not to say Catholicism is false; but a worship of Catholicism
is demonic. Only Christ is worshiped, the God of love.
I worship Christ but only in the Catholic Church.The God of love
speaks many times of the existence of Hell. The God of love tells us
in the Bible that there are many angels (whom He once created and
loved and who once loved Him) who are in Hell.

I have found when doing prayer for people that wherever there is
extreme categorization, there is usually a parental wound, in the past
of the family, where either the family or the person has a history of
When I say non Catholics are oriented to Hell this is the same message
as many saints. St. Teresa of Avila, who was gifted by the Holy Spirit
in a very special way, has written that all Lutherans are going to
Hell. She is in agreement with Vatican Council II at least. Lutherans
do not have Catholic faith (AG 7) which include the Sacraments and the
moral and faith teachings of the Church.
Foto: Rockford Lutheran School is excited to share in the celebration signing for the fine arts. Congratulations to Madeleine Felder (Murray State University), Billy Hartenberger (Trinity International University), Matthew Kortze (Concordia Lutheran NE), Anna Johnson (Gustavus Adolphus), and Sam Bonzi (Western Illinois University.
It is a lie that needs to be repented of an order to gain Holy
Spirit freedom. To this is not a matter of being a member of the
charismatic renewal; to the body a matter of experiencing the fullness
of the Spirit, in an area that needs healing.

My suggestion is that you may want to pray about and ask God and --
listen -- about anything that is the root of a desire for division.
I am affirming the teachings of the Catholic Church before and after
Vatican Council II. This is the traditional teaching of the Church
Fathers, the Fathers of the Middle Ages and Vatican Council II . How
can I be in division?


To their often, conscious or unconscious, that deals with a hatred,
which is based on self rejection; and self judgment; which then
results in judging others.

When I say that all non Catholics are oriented to Hell I am repeating
the teachings of the Catholic Chruch guided by the Holy Spirit. I
cannot judge any one. I do not have any special powers.

The view that an isolated group can take to determine very clearly who
makes it to heaven and who doesn't -- which Jesus directly commanded
us not to do -- is just an insidious version of playing God.
However the Lord wants to deliver us from this.

I am repeating the traditional teachings of the Church. I am saying
that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and the way to go
to Hell is still wide and most people take it. The way to go to Hell
has not changed over time.

You may want to go through a prayer forgiving everybody that you think
is not going to make it to Heaven; and forgiving anybody who taught
you about the spirit of division.

I pray for them all often.

It may even be a call from the occult -- such as a member of your
family who was involved in the freemasons society -- which you may be
completely unaware of.

It is the Freemason society which rejects the exclusivity of the
Catholic Church for salvation. Satan works through the Masons and
others to create new doctrines and teachings. They have created
division on such a massive scale.Those who reject these false
teachings are considered to be causing division according to the media
and organisations controlled by Satan.

The spirit of division is not the Holy Spirit. I rebuke it in the
name of Jesus in every area I encounter it.

The Holy Spirit cannot change Catholic teachings now. There is no New
Revelation.The Holy Spirit could not have been wrong all these

Lord, we reject the spirit of division; and we receive your true Holy
Spirit. We reject the spirit of paranoia, and fear based salvation.
We receive Heaven as a gift, and the church as a gift, not as a
slavery institute.

God is love gift, not a system of in/out. Christ came to free us from
judgment, especially the hyper-religious. Especially -- the
hyper-religious. There was no group that was more dangerous, because
the demonic was not even questioned. Doctrine was put above
discernment of God's voice.

Dogmas and doctrines are God's love for us in the Catholic Church.
They represent Truth and the knowledge on how to go to Heaven and
avoid Hell.
-Lionel Andrades

Father,Come Back! -Michael Voris (Expose of Newton Mass for Homosexuals)

Foederatio Internationalis Una Voce official has nothing to say

Dr. Joseph Shaw is the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society of England. He is the Treasurer of the International Federation Una Voce (FIUV) 1, recognized by the Holy See.He will not affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 846).He will not affirm the dogma pe se. For him  Nostra Aetate 2 is possibly an explicit exception to the traditional interpretation of  Fr.Leonard Feeney and the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. The  Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are traditionalists,  registered with Una Voce.They affirm the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is the interpretation of the  Church Councils, the popes,the saints and Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston.
Dr.Joseph Shaw implies that Nostra Aetate 2 is an exception to the traditional teaching on salvation. He will not correct this error made by Mr. Gavin D'Costa, a Catholic  professor of theology at the University of Bristol. On a video shown on the websites of the University of Bristol and the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales, D'Costa says that not all need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation. He is implying, that  he knows some people in England who do not need to convert into the Church with 'faith and baptism' (AG 7) for salvation. There is no correction from Joseph  Shaw. This is probably the official position of Una  Voce for those priests who offer the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM).
It may be mentioned that those saved with 'a ray of the Truth' (NA 2) are invisible for us. Vatican Council II is referring to a probability, something known only to God. The text of Vatican Council II does not state that these cases are explicit for us or  an exception to the dogma on exclusive salvation. Gavin D'Costa infers that these cases are explicit for us . This is heresy. It is a denial of an ex cathedra dogma which Pope Pius XII called an infallible teaching.(Letter of the Holy Office 1949).It is also a denial of Vatican Council II (AG 7) etc.
What is the position of Una Voce on extra ecclesiam nulla salus with reference to Vatican Council II ? Is Vatican Council II in agreement with the traditional interpretation of the dogma on exclusive salvation as held by hundreds of Catholic saints including the founders of religious communities affiliated with Una Voce ?
Joseph Shaw who is a lecturer at Oxford, will not answer on his blog LMS Chairman, TWO QUESTIONS  2 on the Catholic Faith. Also at conferences on Vatican Council II he does not state that the Council is in agreement with the dogma on salvation.So the Church's teaching on other religions and salvation has not changed after Vatican Council II. It is the traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus with no exceptions.(NA 2, UR 3 etc being possibilities and not exceptions).
When James Bogle was elected the President of FIUV last year  he said ' young people are especially aware of the importance of rediscovering the Church’s roots. “It’s an enjoyable voyage of discovery. Moreover, if Catholics don’t understand their roots then it’s difficult for them to evangelize. When you attempt to evangelise, people will ask you ‘what are the roots of your belief and Church?’
If the answer is: ‘I don’t know, but I think you should join us’, that isn’t going to be terribly persuasive. Why should someone come to the faith if we can’t give a proper historical perspective to
our religion and what its roots are? Even people who aren’t particularly attracted to the traditional
rite of the Mass want to know about its history. It is not something that those seriously interested in
evangelisation can afford to ignore.” 3.
In the 'roots of the Church' ,from  the Church Fathers to the Fathers of Vatican Council II, there is an affirmation of the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus with no known exceptions.This has also been the position of the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) in its General Chapter Statement of 2012. Is it also the position of FIUV ?
-Lionel Andrades

President: Mr. James Bogle, Email:
Secretary: Mr. Thomas Murphy, Email:
Treasurer: Dr. Joseph Shaw, Email:
1) Do we personally know the dead now saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc, can we see them, are they physically visible to us in 2014 ? ANSWER: NO WE CANNOT SEE THEM, THEY ARE NOT VISIBLE TO US  or  YES WE CAN SEE THEM THEY ARE VISIBLLE TO US ON EARTH.
2) Since we do not known any of these in real life, they are not visible for us, there are no known exceptions to the literal interpreattion of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad  Genets 7 which states all need faith and baptism for salvation ?