Wednesday, March 20, 2013

Bro.Thomas Augustine will still not answer if the baptism of desire cases are visible to us

November 7, 2012


Brother Thomas Augustine MICM clarification
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/brother-thomas-augustine-micm.html

Gesuiti Papa Francesco :Se hanno scomunicato don Leonard Feeney per aver detto che non era battesimo di desiderio allora hanno fatto uno sbaglio: non sono eccezioni conosciute dal dogma

Friday, May 4, 2012

Se hanno scomunicato don Leonard Feeney per aver detto che non era battesimo di desiderio allora hanno fatto uno sbaglio: non sono eccezioni conosciute dal dogma.

CATHOLIC CULTURE OFFERS THEOLOGY PROGRAMS WHICH ARE PROPAGANDA

CatholicCulture.org: Pray. Think. Act.



Is There Salvation Outside the Church?

by Fr. Alfred McBride, O. Praem.

Fr. Alfred McBride gives a brief, summary of the Catholic Church's teaching on whether salvation is possible outside the Church. Also covers Fr. Leonard Feeney.

Some years ago, a popular Jesuit writer named Father Leonard Feeney charmed readers with his humorous essays and books, such as "Fish on Friday." A lighthearted apologist and defender of the Church, his insistence on doctrine delivered with a sense of humor prompted the comment that he was "as Catholic as St. Thomas Aquinas and as American as Mark Twain."

In 1943, Father Feeney became the popular chaplain for the students at St. Benedict's Center, which served Catholics from Harvard and Radcliffe.

And then something happened, He began to preach that the axiom of Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) — "Outside the Church, no salvation" — meant that formal membership in the Catholic Church was necessary for salvation. The Vatican's Holy Office rejected his restrictive view by distinguishing between those who really belong to the Church (in re) and those who belong by desire (in voto).
Lionel:
 The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 only mentioned those who belong in re and in voto. It did not state that this was a contradiction to Fr.Leonard Feeney. Catholic Culture assumes it.
Only God decides who is in re and in voto so it is irrelevant to Fr.Leonard Feeney's interpretation which was traditional. 
If we personally do not know any of these cases how can they be exceptions or relevant to the dogma.

 The desire would be explicit in those who were catechumens and implicit in those people of goodwill who would join the Church if they knew it to be the one, true Church of Christ.

Lionel: 
Acceptable and these cases are invisible for us. 

Father Feeney refused an order from his Jesuit superiors to leave St. Benedict's Center. The following year he was dismissed from the Society of Jesus. In the meantime, he established a religious community for men and women for his followers at Still River, Mass. In 1972, through the efforts of Bishop Bernard Flanagan of Worcester, Father Feeney and some of his followers were reconciled to the Church. He died in 1978.

The Fathers of the Church often taught that "outside the Church there is no salvation" (e.g., St. Augustine, Sermon 96, 7, 9). Stated positively, this means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church, which is His Body.

Lionel:
That all salvation comes from Christ is not to posited against the dogma since we do not know any one who is saved without the baptism of water. Catholic Culture is about to assume there that we know these exceptions.There are no known exceptions.

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Second Vatican Council teaches that the Church is necessary for salvation. Christ is the mediator and way of salvation. He is present to us in His body, which is the Church. He explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism. By doing so, He affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which people enter through baptism. Because of that, there are people who could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 846).

Lionel:
So CCC 846 (above) says all need faith and baptism for salvation  and we do not know any exceptions.Ther sub title of CCC 846 is Outside the Church There is No Salvation.

Vatican II teaches that the Church is the "Sacrament of Salvation." (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, no. 1; Catechism, no. 780). Christ intended that the Church be a sacrament of the inner union of all people with God. This means that the Church is an effective sign of salvation for all who will be saved. Not just a signpost — like "exit 34" on a freeway — but an actual instrument of salvation. Jesus accomplishes His saving work in and through the Church.

Lionel:
Yes!

But what about the billions of people who do not know Christ or the Church?

"Those, who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may attain eternal salvation" (Catechism, no. 847). Sincere non-Christians can be moved by grace to seek God and know and do His will. When they do so according to the dictates of their conscience they can be saved, for by God's will they are associated with the paschal mystery of Christ.

Lionel:
Yes they can be saved but CCC 847 does not state that we personally know these cases. So they are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Catholic Culture assumes these cases are personally known and so they are exceptions to Fr.Leonard  Feeney.

What about those outside the Church who belong to other Christian faiths or world religions? I do not have enough space here to give an adequate answer to this question. I strongly recommend studying the Catechism's coverage of this matter in nos. 836-845. The opening statement is instructive: "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by grace to salvation" (no. 836).

Lionel:
Salvation is open to all, Jesus died for all. To receive it one needs to enter the Church visibly. This was the traditional teaching. It is expressed in Dominus Iesus 20.

Members of other Christian churches who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are in a certain, though imperfect, union with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this union is so close that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Eucharist.

Lionel:
It is possible for a person to be saved in imperfect communion with the Church (UR 3) but  we cannot name these cases. So they are not exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation. Ad Gentes 7 like the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, defined three times, indicates Christians need to enter the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.

The Church maintains a special relationship with the Jewish people. As the People of God in the New Covenant, the Church has a deep link with the Jewish people, who were the first to hear God's Word. "Unlike other non-Christian religions, the Jewish faith is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant."

Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II ( Ad Gentes 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846(cited above) Jews need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.

Regarding the Messiah, Jews and Catholics have similar goals about the future. Catholics await the return of the Messiah, who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God. Jews await the coming of a messiah whose features remain hidden until the end of time. Their expectation, therefore, is accompanied by the mystery of their not knowing or misunderstanding Jesus Christ when He comes again.

Lionel:
According to Vatican Council II and other Magisterial documents, Jews need to believe in the Messiah and enter the Catholic Church for salvation.

The Catechism proceeds to discuss the Church's positive relationships with the Muslims and other non-Christian religions that developed quite independently of Judaism and Christianity. "The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions" which "often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men" (Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, no. 2).

Lionel:
We appreciate all that is good and holy in other religions however NA 2 does not state that we know good and holy Muslims who are saved in Heaven without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. So NA 2 does not contradict Fr.Leonard Feeney or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need to convert into the Church with faith and baptism.

 The commitment of the Church to ecumenical and interfaith dialogue with other believers is a major effort to fulfill the Father's will that all people be gathered together into His Son's Church.

Lionel:
In inter religious dialogue it must be remembered that the Church is the ordinary means of salvation (Redemptoris Missio 55). This was also the view of Fr.Leonard Feeney. 

"The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation," St. Augustine wrote (Sermon 96, 7). "The Church is the world reconciled. She is the bark which in the full sail of the Lord's Gross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Norbertine Father Alfred McBride is the author of "Essentials of the Faith: A Guide to the Catechism of the Catholic Church" (Our Sunday Visitor).

© Our Sunday Visitor, Inc.
This item 674 digitally provided courtesy of CatholicCulture.org

CATHOLIC CULTURE ASSUMES CASES OF INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE SAVED IN HEAVEN ARE VISIBLE TO US AND SO ARE EXCEPTIONS TO FR.LEONARD FEENEY

CatholicCulture.org: Pray. Think. Act.
In the standard theology textbooks used in all the seminaries at the end of the 19th century and throughout the first half of the 20th, in Tanquerey's Moral Theology, for instance, you will commonly see a sentence from one address Pius IX gave to some bishops, in which Pius IX declared that he — and the Catholic bishops in general — perfectly well knew that it is not a sin for persons to remain outside the Church if they are invincibly ignorant of the true religion — don't know it and without any guilty negligence on their part really can't find out about it. 

And, furthermore, though he does not use this odd modern word, of course, psychological factors matter — some things are impossible because they are morally impossible, humanly impossible, psychologically impossible. He said that in view of the indescribable real complexity and mysteriousness of the many factors that might limit a person's ability to understand the claims of the Church, there is no way as a rule to know who is or is not invincibly ignorant.
The Leonard Feeney Quarrel and Pius IX on Invincible Ignorance
by Farley Clinton

it is not a sin for persons to remain outside the Church if they are invincibly ignorant of the true religion — don't know it and without any guilty negligence on their part really can't find out about it.
Lionel: 
Yes it is not a sin and we do not know personally any such case. The popes have also not said that we can physically see such cases. The writer and Jeff Mirus of Catholic Culture assumes that these cases are visible to us and so they presume they are known exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney.

there is no way as a rule to know who is or is not invincibly ignorant.
Lionel:
Precisely we cannot know who will be saved in invincible ignorance and Vatican Council II (AG 7) says all need faith and baptism for salvation. Redemptoris Missio 55 says the Church is the ordinary way of salvation (not  being saved in another religion or in invincible ignorance).

So there is no case against Fr.Leonard Feeney-period!
-Lionel Andrades





“Jesus Christ wants YOU to be a Roman Catholic!”- Fr.Brian Harrison

Jesus Christ wants YOU to be a Roman Catholic!
- Fr.Brian Harrison 
http://credostlouis.org/2012/06/03/outside-the-church-no-salvation-fr-feeney/

JESUITS OPEN THE FR.LEONARD FEENEY CASE


JESUIT SUPERIOR GENERAL REVIEW THE FR.LEONARD FEENEY CASE : THERE IS NO KNOWN CASE OF A PERSON SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE WHICH IS VISIBLE
November 16, 2011



Pope’s book co-authored with rabbi to be translated into English

'On Heaven and Earth’ discusses Holocaust, same-sex marriage and globalization, among other topics.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/pope-s-book-co-authored-with-rabbi-to-be-translated-into-english-1.510696


A nun holds a photograph of Pope Francis during a Thanksgiving Mass for the newly elected pope  
Pope Francis was not aware of Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14) which says all need faith and baptism for salvation. All include people of other faiths. The Jesuit pope did not mention it in the book he co-authored with a Rabbi.
 
May be he too was confused on the Fr.Leonard Feeney case. The Holy Father could have assumed that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were known exceptions to the traditional teaching of popes and Councils on the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

This was an injustice done to Fr.Leonard Feeney.The baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are irrelevant to outside the church there is no salvation. Invisible cases are exceptions to nothing.
-Lionel Andrades

It was revealed to St. Gertrude that as many times as someone glances at the Crucified One with devotion, the same amount of times that person is looked upon by Jesus.



Passiontide

Si autem mortui sumus cum Christo...

Antonio Castillo Lastrucci
Nuestro Padre Jesús en su Presentación al Pueblo
Parish Church of St. Benedict, Abbot, Seville

It was revealed to St. Gertrude that as many times as someone glances at the Crucified One with devotion, the same amount of times that person is looked upon by Jesus. St. Bonaventure of Bagnoregio wrote: “O amiable Passion that divinizes those who meditate upon You.” And speaking of the wounds of the Crucified One, they are called wounds which melt the hardest of hearts and inflame the coldest of souls with divine love: "...vulnera dura corda vulnerantia, et mentes congelatas inflammantia."

The Passion of Our Lord has always been the standard meditation and contemplation of the Saints. In fact, writes St. Alphonsus de Liguori, “From where have the Saints attained courage to bear their persecutions, torments and death itself, but in the sufferings of Jesus Crucified? Who, therefore, could not love Jesus, seeing Him die amidst so many sufferings and so much contempt, in order to obtain our love? […] If we meditate often upon the crucifixion of Jesus, we would be taught to fear sin and, we would be inflamed with love towards such a beloved God seeing in those wounds the malice of sin which has reduced Him to suffer such a bitter death. This to make satisfaction to Divine Justice and also that we might understand just how much the Savior loved us.”

St Augustine said that one tear alone shed when meditating upon the Passion of Jesus Christ, is worth more than a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and a year spent in fasting on bread and water.

The spectacle of the Cross has been the favored contemplation of the souls enamoured of Our Lord. Meditating with a loving glance upon the way of Calvary, St. Augustine comments: “Jesus set off towards the place where he would be crucified, carrying His Cross. What a spectacle! It is a great scandal in the eyes of the wicked, it is a terrible and humiliating spectacle, but he who knows how to look upon it with sentiments of devotion, discovers in it a great support for his faith. Those who assist at this spectacle with a wicked soul, can only laugh at the King Who, instead of a sceptre, carries the cross upon which He will be tortured; the pious, on the other hand, contemplate the King Who bears the cross upon which He will be nailed, but Who will then be placed before all kings. Upon it He will be despised by the wicked, while the hearts of the saints will glory in it.” St. Paul, in fact, says: “But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of Christ” (Gal 6:14). Christ exalted the cross by carrying it on His shoulders, and He bore it like a candelabrum - the light that must burn and which is not to be placed under a bushel ( Mt. 5:15). In the cross, therefore, one must glory: in fact, it is the instrument of our redemption and a pledge of the resurrection.

But there is one detail of the Passion of the Savior which it would be useful to highlight, since too often it is forgotten. Our Lord, on the cross, was not alone. St. Augustine, in the footsteps of St. Paul, teaches that Jesus Christ is both Head and Body. We – therefore – members of His Mystical Body – were with Him in each of the mysteries of His life; also – and above all, in the supreme mystery of the Redemption.

“No! – says St. Augustine – we are not to see in Jesus Christ (Who suffers upon the Cross) only the Head, that is, only the Mediator between God and man. We must consider Jesus Christ as the perfect man, Who in Himself re-unites the head and the body; because the whole Christ includes the head and the body. Therefore, on the cross, He Himself speaks in the name of His body, when He says: Deus meus, Deus meus, ut quid dereliquisti me? God the Father, in fact, had not abandoned Jesus Christ, nor had Jesus Christ abandoned God the Father. But man, since he had abandoned God, had in reality, been abandoned by God. Jesus Christ, having taken the flesh of Adam, speaks here, ex persona ipsius carnis, as if He were Adam, since ‘our old man’ was affixed to the cross with Him.”

Thus, Jesus was not alone on the Cross; we were in truth present with Him. So when our Head died, we also, as members inseparably united to Him, died together with Him. “The great Sacrifice of Jesus Christ – observes Bossuet – was the preparation for the Sacrifice of our death, and Jesus Christ is also the High Priest (just as He was on the Cross). Let us raise ourselves at this point above the natural way of seeing things: one of the great uses which Jesus will make of His sacrificial action will be to renew and to perpetuate, until the end of the world, His Sacrifice, and not only the mystery of the Divine Eucharist, but also in the death of all His true Faithful.”

From the inexhaustible contemplation of the Cross of Our Lord, of which we are participants, without merit, let us draw the true wisdom which sees in the Scandal of the Cross, the mystery of the greatest love. “With interior eyes look at the wounds of the Crucified One – exhorts St. Augustine – the scars of the Risen One. Think of the value of all these things and place it on the balance scales of love.

May He, Who , for your sake was nailed to the Cross, be in every way impressed upon your heart.

[Editorial - De vita Contemplativa – The Franciscan Sisters of the Immaculate, Italy. Translation: Contributor Francesca Romana]
-from Rorate Caeili  http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/



Christ's followers retrieve and grieve over the dead body of Jesus

Fr.Brian Harrison also mistakes the baptism of desire as being an exception to the dogma on salvation

Fr.Brain Harrison is in the Fr.Leonard Feeney- St.Benedict Centers camp, in as much, that he holds the literal interprtation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, as it was known for centuries.

Fr.Harrison,O.S., M.A., S.T.D and Asociate Editor of Living Tradition, Oblates of Wisdom, USA states 'we should be communicating rather more directly to our Protestant, lapsed Catholic and non-Christian brethren the unequivocal message that “Jesus Christ wants YOU to be a Roman Catholic!” If we did so rather more boldly, I suspect that the spiritual fruits would be very considerable, with a harvest of souls that would truly give glory to God.' (http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt150.html)

So like the St.Benedict Centers, the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney, he would say there is no baptism of desire which is an exception to the dogma but like the SBC he somehow also holds the view of the baptism of desire as being visible to us in the present times.

So in potential, as a possibility, they assume that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Perhaps what I say here may not be true of all the supporters of the St.Benedict Centers, or all the members of the religious community  Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Some, do understand the baptism of desire as being hypothetical and so irrelevant to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.They know it has nothing to do with the dogma.

Fr.Brian Harrison does not just reject the baptism of desire as having nothing to do with the dogma. He accomodates it in intricate theology. He is using a hermeneutic of reconciling the dogma with the Letter of the Holy Office while all the time assuming that the baptism of desire is visible to us physically.This is a complicated means of trying to make sense of an irrationality.

This month in a turning point video, Michael Voris asked Fr.Jonathan Morris to name someone whom the priest knows, who does not need the Catholic Church for salvation.This was the question, that needed to be asked, proclaimed,shouted out and advertised over the last 65 years or so.

It's simple. Whom does Fr.Brian Harrison know in 2013 who could be a potential exception to being saved without being a visible member of the Catholic Church? Who does not need to enter the Church formally, can he name someone he knows ?

If Fr.Brian Harrison repsonds and says "but this is exactly what I have been saying and writing all these years " then the follow up question is:

'Then why is being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire an exception to the dogma if these cases are not visible?Why are they relevant?

If it is said that the Holy Office (1949) said this or that, then, fine!- the Holy Office made a factual mistake.-Lionel Andrades

: http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt149.html : http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt150.html