Wednesday, November 26, 2014

IN SLOVAKIA, APPARITION OF MARY ADDRESSED HOW ILLNESS IS HEALED AND HOW ONE ATTAINS PEACE

At Litmanová, Slovakia, where the Blessed Mother appeared between August 1990 and August 1995, her words reputedly included insight, among other matters, on how to maintain peace and maintain health.
The messages were as brief and edifying as they are fascinating.
"My dear children, I ask you again, change your lives and sacrifice them fully to God," she intoned, at one juncture. "Because only in this way your lives may become eternal. Oh, my children, learn to say this: 'Your Sacred Will be done' everywhere and in everything because the eternal peace is hidden in You.' Pray this until you understand that peace is the core of every soul."
It is a powerful remark -- indicating that it's when we get rid of the facades of life and traces of worldliness that we reach that long-sought goal so many have of inner tranquility.
During the apparitions to two young women, Iveta Korĉá and Katka Česelková (12 and 13 years of age, at the time of the first experiences), the Blessed Mother did not use human language but somehow spoke in a way that the girls (mainly Ivetka, who received the majority of messages) could understand and later relate to onlookers who recorded them.
"My dear children," said Mary (mainly appearing in white dress and blue mantle), "I am glad that I can be here with you. Please, go and calm down with my Son. This world fills you up with restlessness and noise and then you forget how to be quiet and humble before God. Then you do not feel what Jesus wants to do inside you. And you do not feel what your prayer wants to do inside you. When you feel weak, put all your weakness into my heart, so that God may manifest His powers."
 zvětšený obrázek... Speaking of Jesus and those who sought healing at the site -- where there is miraculous water -- the Virgin told Ivetka to "put diseases in His wounds. And then Jesus will be able to do inside her whatever He wants." That was apparently after a request made for an ailing boy. His disease, said Mary, "shall serve to spiritually cure people and he should not be afraid. God's Mercy is on him."
There is a reason some are sick, she told the seer, a reason for them bearing "a cross." Referring to one infirm man, the Blessed Mother remarked in a similar fashion that "he should not be so sad because he will set many souls free through his disease, his pain." Referring to an ill boy (it's not apparent if this was the same one), she said prayers should be directed to the saint assigned to him at Baptism. A man with severe cancer was told to pick one of the Apostles and pray to that saint in a special way.
"To cure both body and mental diseases it is necessary to pray the entire Rosary (Joyful, Sorrowful, and Glorious) every day, to fast every Wednesday and Friday, and to drink the water from the spring on the mountain," she said about sick people brought to her attention during the apparitions. "Sin is a cause of every disease." ("A" cause, not "the" cause.)
"The world is sick because it is filled with abomination and dirt but you should not want to think in the way the world thinks, nor want to long for the things the world longs for."
"I love you very much and I deeply care about the purity of your hearts," added the Blessed Mother.
Do not let the world, said Mary, make you insincere.
The mission of every person, advised the Virgin, in these approbated appearances, involves love "because life is intended for this and only love can make your lives full."
"These times are like a thief of peace. Please, tell God: 'I love and therefore, I am sorry. I love and therefore, I forgive. I love and this is my peace." Speaking directly to God -- conversationally -- was a key, Mary told Ivetka.
"The most important thing is that you maintain peace inside yourselves," said Mary. "Please, open your heart to my words. I accept you as you are."
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Steve Speray makes the same error as the CMRI and MHFM



Steven Speray is unable to answer the following two questions(A and B).Since he too had assumed that the baptism of desire is visible and known to us and that Church documents had mentioned this.This is a common error among Catholics.
 
A.You do agree that there is no precedent before 1949 when the Church says that the baptism of desire refers to visible in the flesh cases and they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
B.Mystici Corporis does not make this claim as it was wrongly inferred to in the Letter of the Holy Office?

 
Here is a continuation of the discussion with Steve Speray, with my comments.
Nov.26,2014
 
Lionel:

To assume that the baptism of desire and blood refer to known cases who are saved without the baptism of water is irrational.Since you do not know any such case.
Steven:No it's not. We know who is saved by Baptism of Blood and I have written in my books how it doesn't contradict Pope Eugene IV.
Lionel:

Yes it does not contradict Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.
However you cannot say someone is going to be a martyr in 2014 and so does not need the baptism of water.You would not know.
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Lionel:We can assume that someone saved as a martyr has been saved without the baptism of water but we do not really know. The saints Including St.Francis Xavier tell us that God has sent people back to earth only to be baptised with water.They then died and went back to God.
SPERAY: Oh yes you can know. When the Church declares and has a mass under his name for doing. It's a guaranteed.

Lionel :We cannot physically see them.We cannot meet them. St.Francis of Assisi is a saint .Padre Pio is declared a saint by the Church and we accept this in faith but we cannot see them with our eyes or meet them in 2014.
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How can what is unknown be relevant or an exception to the traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation?
Steven: The Traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation is that God can save a person without Water in extraordinary cases,

Lionel:
1.And how can these 'extraordinary cases' be exceptions to Cantate Dominio, or Vatican Council II (AG 7) this year when we do not know any case.
2. The de fide part of the dogma is that every one needs to enter the Church for salvation.No part of the dogmatic text says God can save a person without water in extraordinary cases.
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Lionel:The text of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined by three Church Councils does not state this. Neither do the popes and saints.

SPERAY: Doesn't say otherwise either. Florence implied it though.

Lionel:
'Doesn't say otherwise either'?
It says all need to enter the Church for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum. I thought you agreed on this.
Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441 was clear to the popes, saints and numerous Catholics.For them there were no exceptions implied.
I also asked you earlier to quote me the text where it implied this.It would be an education for me.
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Steven:and you reject that universal and ordinary teaching of the Church.
Lionel:

1.I affirm all need to enter the Church with no exceptions for salvation (Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441, Vatican Council II (AG 7) etc.
2. I affirm implicit- for- us LG 16,LG 8, UR 3, NA 2, AG 11,LG 8 etc.
This is the ordinary and traditional teaching of the Catholic Church in accord with Vatican Council II.
1.You instead reject (1) since there are known exceptions for you. This is heresy and irrationality.
2. You affirm an explicit for us LG 16,LG 8 etc which is a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (AG 7). In (2) it is invisible and implicit for me but visible and explicit for you.You can see the dead who are now in Heaven.
For you AG 7 would contradict LG 16,LG 8 etc. Your interpretation of Vatican Council II would also be irrational.
For me AG 7 is not contradicted by invisible for us, posibilities. So LG 16, LG 8 etc refer to possibilities accepted in principle but not defacto, objectively known in the present times to be exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.So AG 7 does not contradict LG 16 etc.
Please note that this is the same error made by the sedevacantists
CMRI and MHFM.
 
You do agree that there is no precedent before 1949 when the
Church says that the baptism of desire refers to visible in the flesh
cases and they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra
ecclesiam nulla salus?
Mystici Corporis does not make this claim as it was wrongly inferred to in the Letter of the Holy Office?
_________________________________________________________________
Lionel:
I think I have dealt with the following.However let me know if there is any thing still not clear.
The baptism of desire is subjective and the baptism of water is objective. We cannot administer or see the baptism of desire. We can see the baptism of water being given and it can be repeated. The same with Catholic Faith. We can proclaim it, recite or check it. It is objective.
So what is subjective cannot be an objective exception to all objectively needing the baptism of water in 2014 for salvation.
 
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Lionel:
Yes it does not contradict Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.

SPERAY: Baptism of Blood concerns non-baptized persons wanting to be united to Christ and the Church but died for the sake of Christ without being baptized.
 
Lionel:
O.K and you do not know any such case today who does not need the baptism of water for salvation. So why mention it?
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 Cantate Domino refers to those didn't remain in the Church but who shed their blood for Christ. It's true, of course, since you can't be saved by shedding your blood for Christ but refused to be a member of Christ's Church. THAT'S THE PLAIN MEANING OF THE TEXT.
Will you concede this point?  

Lionel:
So you have not provided any text from Cantate Dominio which refers to exceptions.Neither do you personally know of any exceptions today to Cantate Dominio. What more is there to say on this point?
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Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441 was clear to the popes, saints and numerous Catholics.For them there were no exceptions implied.
SPERAY: You can't supply a single text that says or implies it.
 
Lionel:
I am not implying that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma. Those who assume there are exceptions must show us the text in Cantate Dominio.
The text was very clear over the centuries. There were no exceptions mentioned.
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Steve:
  All the popes post-Trent taught Baptism of Desire, which you have denied by saying, "for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum."
 
Lionel:
Yes, since the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma is not in conflict with implicit for us baptism of desire. I can affirm the traditional interpretation of the dogma , the Feeneyite version, alongwith the baptism of desire which is a possibility but not a known reality in the present times. So it does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.
It would seem to contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction for you, since for you the baptism of desire is explicit and visible. So there is a contradiction. This could be your understanding of the baptism of desire in the book you have written. The CMRI and MHFM make the same mistake.


____________________________________________
 
I also asked you earlier to quote me the text where it implied this.It would be an education for me.
SPERAY: The following texts are exactly opposite to your personal teaching that "for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum."
The Roman Catechism says adults “are not baptized at once…The delay is not attended the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any foreseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.” (p 179)
 
Lionel:
This is a reference to a hypothtical case which we accept in principle. This  case is not known and visible to us in the present times. So it is not an exception to the traditional intepretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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“Catechism of St. Pius X” written by Pope St. Pius X:
29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Lionel:
Pope Pius X is referring to a hypothetical case. He does not say that this person is known and visible to us to be an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma.
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Canon 1239.2 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law declares, “catechumens who through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as Baptized.”

Lionel:
Yes.
The same as above.
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Canon 737 declares, “Baptism, the gateway and foundation of the Sacraments, actually or at least in desire is necessary for all for salvation….”
 
Lionel:
Yes as a possibility. Yes in principle.Yes hypothetically or in faith.It will also be followed by the baptism of water (AG 7).
No defacto. Defacto every one needs the baptism of water for salvation ( Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441, Vatican Council II (AG 7) .In the present times we do not know any one saved with the baptism of desire etc and without the baptism of water.
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Pope Pius IX wrote in Singulari Quidem, On the Church in Austria Encyclical, March 17, 1856: [17] Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.
Lionel:
Outside of the Church nobody is saved in the present times (2014) and we do not know any one who could be excused because of ignorance and would be saved without the baptism of water. If there was such a case it would be known only to God.
So once again defacto, in the external forum, in the present times, objectively, there are no exceptions and there cannot be known exceptions for us.
-Lionel Andrades

 October 9
November 25, 2014

This is a common mistake in the Catholic Church. Catholics infer that the baptism of desire is visible for us and that this is the teaching in Church documents http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/this-is-common-mistake-in-catholic.html

http://www.cmri.org/slides/2014-fatima-conference/index.html