Thursday, June 26, 2014

I talk in terms of visible and invisible only because Catholics in general are unaware that they are using these terms

Even if the Holy Office letter made a factual mistake, who cares?
Lionel:
So it is an error for the Holy  Office 1949 to claim there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is important to note this. 
 If the Code of Canon Law can be modified and/or amended, so can the Holy Office Letter. 
 Lionel:
There is factual misinformation in the Letter. 
In fact, the Second Vatican Council dropped the "in voto" phrase used by the Holy Office, which carries less weight than the Holy Office's condemnation of Galileo.
In any case, the Holy Office letter never states that salvation is "visible" to us. 
 Lionel:
Any one who says there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus is saying that salvation is "visible" for us.Think on this!
Whether it even implies such or not is a matter of debate;
 Lionel:
When it says there are exceptions to the interpretation of the dogma by Fr.Leonard Feeney it is inferring that there are some known exceptions. An exception would have to be a person who exists and is different. He would have to be someone visible. Otherwise how can he be an exception? 
you think that it does, but I am not so convinced. Either way, the Letter's appeal to the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church and to the Council of Trent, in particular, would seem to *imply* that it is to be read in light of those two Sources of Truth and not the other way around! So, seen in that light, the Council of Trent is absolutely clear: 
 Lionel:
The issue is are there any exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney ?. 
 
The eternal Salvation of anyone, Catholic or otherwise, is NOT visible. Period.
 Lionel:
Then how can the baptism of desire be an exception, for you?
 
 

The Catholic Church is certainly a visible entity, as there is a Bishop of Rome with Cardinals, Bishops, priests, etc., as well as a baptized laity, some of whom attend Mass regularly, but such does not mean that large scores of those folks (me and you included) are going to go to Heaven. In fact, the exact opposite may be true, and Heaven may be sparsely populated at best.
 Lionel:
I talk in terms of visible and invisible only because Catholics in general are unaware that they are using these terms. They say there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This means there are known cases in 2014,for them.
-Lionel Andrades

Objectively we cannot see a baptism of desire case: the Holy Office 1949 implies we can

Lionel:
We are still talking across to each other.You often refer to theology.I would agree with your theology in general. I would agree with the citation from St.Thomas Aquinas.Similarly with those of the Council of Basil.
 
I am making a philosophical observation on which one can later build a theology. I am saying that the dead in Heaven are not visible to us. I am referring to them not being visible to us phyically on earth.I am not here referring to the theology of the baptism of desire but I am saying that physically, objectively we cannot see a baptism of desire case.
 
1.So if you say that they are visible then you create a theology. You say there are exceptions to the dogma. Exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney. Exceptions in Vatican Council II to EENS.
2.If you say that they are not visible then you create the theology. You say there are no exceptions to the dogma. No exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney. No exceptions in Vatican Council II to EENS.
 
Either of the two intellectual or philosophical observations (above) results in a theology.
 
The Letter of the Holy Office has chosen one philosophical observation from above.
 
We can tell this from its theology. 
-Lionel Andrades

The Holy Office 1949 used the dead man walking and visible theory : it was a mistake

I
 
 
 
 
I would disagree; I don't think that the Holy Office Letter is saying that the "dead are visible." 
Lionel:
Since they say there are exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney, they imply that there are explicit exceptions. If they are explicit then they would have to be objectively visible.Visible? These persons are saved in Heaven with the baptism of desire etc.
 Rather, the Holy Office Letter is saying that there are some folks who are outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church who are in a state of sanctifying grace, which is neither "visible" to them or to us.
Lionel:
Yes.
Theologically yes.
In principle yes.
Hypothetically yes.
In theory, yes.
In faith, yes.
 
But if you are implying that these cases are exceptions to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney NO!
We'll only know who these individuals are in Eternity.  You can call it an "invisible set" I suppose.
Lionel:
True.
Now they are hypothetical .This is acceptable.But the moment you imply that they are exceptions to Fr.Leonard Feeney  it would be an error. It would be irrational. It would be the dead man walking theory.
-Lionel Andrades
 

Franciscans of the Immaculate and the Vatican's X-Files

Instructions have been given.Do not  permit the Traditional Latin Mass(TLM) when the ' old ecclesiology' is being taught by the priest.Only those priests can offer the TLM who use the Batman -version of Vatican Council II.
According to the Vatican's X-Files no one is to interpret the Council without inferring that salvation in Heaven is physically visible on earth.This is the obligatory X Factor which must be used in the interpretation of Catholic doctrine.There could soon be an exodus( X-odus ?) of religious from the Franciscans of the Immaculate Catholic religious community.
The Franciscan Friars and  Sisters have to take an oath and offically say that they can see the dead- saved in Heaven who are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.If they say there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus then this is what they are implying. Exceptions mean seeing the dead-saved. Exceptions have to be visible to be exceptions.So Vatican Council II becomes a break with the past because of the exceptions to the dogma on exclusive salvation.It also becomes heretical with this fantasy. It is  non traditional and creating confusion. This is fantasy -theology based on a false premise ( deceased and visible who are exceptions to Tradition).It is going around in theological and doctrinal cicles and the Vatican has approved it.Lord of the many rings.
It's like Batman telling Robin ,"You  have to fly while  knowing things don't make sense".
Theology has entered the realm of fantasy and the Fransciscans of the Immaculate are being forced to accept traditional heresy. It's like Alice before the looking glass saying ' the dead saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are visible to me!".This is wonder-land!.
The Catholic media are avoiding all this fantasy.Otherwise there would be headlines like, 'Pope wants Franciscans of the Immaculate to claim salvation in Heaven is physically visible on earth'.
Since the media is ideologically correct, they are not reporting, 'Catholic theology professor at the University of Bristol identifies dead-saved with ' a ray of the Truth'.
 
It is not being reported that Ecclesia Dei has been overruled.Summorum Pontificum allowed the Traditional Latin Mass to be offered freely as any other Mass without asking the bishops permission.Pope Francis wants the bishop, usually liberal and pro-Mason, to give special permission. He wants to control the traditional ecclessiology of the priest, which is inference-free.It is free of the false premise used in the interpretation of Vatican Council II. Without this irrationality, it is 'No Traditional Latin Mass'.
The SSPX offers the same Latin Mass.It is  the Sacrifice of Jesus, as that of the Holy Mass of the pope.The SSPX though  are not allowed in Catholic Churches.While churches in Rome under the Vatican, are being given out for religious and social programs to non Catholics and non Christians.
This is sad. For some this would be comic. Weak Clark Kent spirituality!. Straight from the Harvey Comics.
The FSSP meanwhile continues to offer the Traditional Latin Mass interpreting Vatican Council II with the false premise even though a rational alternative is available.They are to be given the green light according to the X-Files.
-Lionel Andrades