So is this not an 'irregular' situation for the bishop, priests, religious and catechists in the diocese of Worcester ?

The Bishop of Worcester would not allow the Eucharist to be given to a divorcee. Nor would he accept a priest who is married.There are rules and he knows them.Yet he allows priests in his diocese to offer Holy Mass who believe there are explicit exceptions to a defined dogma and to Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7), even though the  bishop and priests cannot cite any known exceptions in daily life.Probably the bishop is not aware of this situation and he himself could be making this error.

We can accept exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as possibilities, defacto there are no known exceptions, so in reality there are no exceptions to the dogma or Ad Gentes 7 which says ALL need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

Priests of the diocese offer Mass for the religious community Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary who hold the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and agree with Vatican Council II (AG 7).They know LG 16 (invincible ignorance) is not an explicit exception to the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation.So they do not believe in a visible-to-us-baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance and being now in Heaven and known to us.

According to Canon Lawyer Peter Vere the community of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are in full communion with the diocese. They were told to understand the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and make a simple Profession of Faith.They were allowed to hold the strict interpretation of the dogma.(1)

The issue is : can a priest who denies the strict interpretation of the dogma and also AG 7 with alleged exceptions of the baptism of desire and baptism of blood, cases which cannot be known to us and are known only to God, offer Mass? Is the priest not saying 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin' and really means three? Is he not also saying that there are visible to him cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of blood and so they are exceptions to the dogma?

Assuming that he believes that  Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for claiming that the baptism of desire etc are not exceptions to the dogma, would this not be an error of the Holy Office of that time. We know the baptism of desire is not an exception to the dogma since we do not know these cases. So if the Letter of the Holy Office assumes that the baptism of desire etc are defacto exceptions to the dogma then they made a mistake. It would be an objective factual mistake.

So is this not an 'irregular' situation for the bishop, priests, religious and catechists in the diocese of Worcester ?

-Lionel Andrades

  1.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25059967/Peter-Vere-Canon-Lawyer-on-the-status-of-those-who-hold-Fr-Leonard-Feeney-s-Doctrinal-Position

___________________________________________

STRANGE HAPPENINGS IN WORCESTER?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/strange-happenings-in-worcester.html#links
An 'irregular situation' in Manchester,Worcester and Boston?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/catholic-diocesan-priests-in-worcester.html

STRANGE HAPPENINGS IN WORCESTER?

The bishop and priests in Worcester reject a dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7) due to alleged exceptions, unknown to them, and then they offer Holy Mass.

Today morning I attended the Traditional Latin Mass in Rome and there were a few families , large families there, parents and many children.It reminded me of the Neo Catechumenal Mass all over the world.

The priest who offered the Mass has said that  the Church teaches, for salvation everyone needs the baptism of water which is given to adults with Catholic Faith.He said practically speaking we do not know any exceptions on earth.He has got his faith and reason in sync.

I think of the Sisters of St.Benedict Center,Worcester,USA who will also attend the Traditional Latin Mass today.They are not as lucky as me.At Mass there the priest from the Diocese of Worcester could be sure that there are known exceptions to the dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7).All those sisters in the pews, believe in the literal, ancient interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus just like Fr.Leonard Feeney.They trace their origin to the original St.Benedict Center, when Fr.Leonard Feeney was alive.

They have a priest offering Mass who does not know any exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma, but claims there are.

These sisters are dead-sure that there are no known exceptions to the dogma and the priest and his bishop are sure there are!

The bishop and the priests would expect the sisters to reject the literal interpretation of the dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7).The bishop and priests believe there are exceptions to the dogma even though these exceptions are unknown to them.The dogma says all non Catholics need to convert into the Church to avoid the fires of Hell and does not mention any explict exception like the baptism of desire etc.

The bishop has given the sisters full canonical status and the good sisters do not want to offend him even though they know there are no known exceptions.

If it is assumed that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for saying, like the sisters, that the baptism of desire etc are not explicit exceptions to the dogma(and he was not!) then the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 of Pope Pius XII made a mistake. The baptism of desire etc are not explicit exceptions. This is an objective fact. We do not know of any such case.

Probably if the priest who offered Holy Mass today is asked by the sisters:

1."Do you know anyone saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire?” he would answer "no".

2."Does it mean that there are no known exceptions in 2012 to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II(AG 7)?” he could answer " I personally don’t know of any".

3." Is there any Magisterial document which states that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus has been retracted? “No", he could answer.

4."Is there any Magisterial text which says that those saved in invincible ignorance are inown to us ?.”He would answer in the negative.

5."Is there is any Magisterial document which says that these cases are explicit exceptions to the dogma and Vatican Council II(AG 7)?” No ,of course.

6."Is not the dogma in agreement with Dominus Iesus 20?” Yes.

7."Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance/good conscience) is not an explicit exception to the dogma outside the church no salvation or Vatican Council II (AG 7) ?" No since we cannot know any of these cases personally.

So?

He could respond: “I would have to ask my bishop before I could affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ,just like you.”

I had directly e-mailed the former Vicar General in Worcester and asked him some of these questions but he would not answer.Also as a Catholic clarifying the Faith I asked questions of others in the diocese office but they would not respond. The sisters themself when asked a few basic questions via Youtube would not answer and they erased the questions. Possibly with the approval of their Spiritual Director.

Is the priest not in heresy for denying the dogma and Vatican Council II with alleged exceptions and that too , which are unknown to him ?
Couldn't some lay Catholics in the diocese ask  them some direct questions?
-Lionel Andrades

An 'irregular situation' in Manchester,Worcester and Boston?

Catholic diocesan priests in Worcester,Manchester and Boston may be denying the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also,Vatican Council II (AG 7)which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

For these priests all people on earth do not need the baptism of water since they assume that there are known cases who are exceptions to the dogma.The error may be unknown to them.

Since they assume that they know who are these exceptions, they believe only those non Catholics need the baptism of water for salvation, who know about Jesus and the Church.There is the obligation for them only and not for those who are in invincible ignorance etc and have/had been saved in 2012 or the recent years.

Since it is assumed there are known cases in 2012 who are exceptions to the dogma and AG 7 they say there can be non Catholics in Original Sin who can be saved without the baptism of water.

So what is the status of the priests who offer Holy Mass for the religious communities Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary,men and women? I don’t know.

The Slaves of the Immaculate heart of Mary in Los Angeles it is learnt have not asked to be recognized by the bishop and they cite the experience of the Sisters in Worcester who have been granted canonical status.The Sisters are probably told that implicit baptism of desire is an explicit exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma and that of Fr. Leonard Feeney.

For the bishops and priests of the diocese of Worceser,and also Manchester and Boston, how can they accept the literal interpretation of the dogma outside the church no salvation? Is not being saved in invincible ignorance the baptism of desire an exception for them?

And do they know of any case of someone being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire?There will be no answer forthcoming.

So the issue remains- how can a priest who denies the centuries old interpretation of the dogma and also rejects Vatican Council II (AG 7) because of alleged exceptions, which he doesn’t know of, offer Mass?

Is this not an ‘irregular situation’ ?

-Lionel Andrades

Photos from the website Catholicism.org.Two Sisters Profess Final Vows. Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary

http://ihm.catholicism.org/2012/03/profession-final-vows/

SSPX PRIESTS, SISTERS, SEMINARIANS JOIN THE SLAVES OF THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY: YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO AFFIRM A VISIBLE-TO -US -BAPTISM OF DESIRE

Members of the SSPX when they recite the Nicene Creed in the Profession of Faith say ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’.They really mean three baptisms.

They also have to believe irrationally in a visible baptism of desire. All this can be prevented in another traditionalist community in the USA.They require priests. The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary do not believe in a visible baptism of desire.They have no problem with the Nicene Creed.

The religious and lay persons of the Society of St.Pius X are commended for their affirmation of the tradtional teachings of the Catholic Church however they have one issue in common with the liberals, whom they correct. They assume that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance is a defacto,explicit exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is irrational.Since we do not know any case of a non Catholic on earth in 2012 saved with the baptism of desire etc.

Then because they assume that there are three baptisms known to us in the present time, known to us in personal cases, they assume that there are three baptisms for the forgiveness of sin for all people on earth. Theoretically correct,dejure ( in principle) yes - but defacto this is not true. Explicitly in the present time there is only one baptism for the forgiveness of sin it is the baptism of water given to adults with the Catholic Faith. We can only administer the baptism of water and cannot give anyone the baptism of desire and neither do we know whom God will judge as a martyr(baptism of blood).

So when we pray ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ it means every one on earth needs the baptism of water for salvation,only.

The SSPX bishops and priests are not recognizing this issue in public. They are also critical of Vatican Council II’s teaching on other religions since they assume that Lumen Gentium 16(invincible ignorance) refers to explicit cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and this is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They assume that Vatican Council II contradicts the literal interpretation of the dogma and so the traditional teaching on other religions.

The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary do not have this problem and they need priests in their community.They are served by a priest from the diocese.The diocese of Worcester,Manchester and Boston all assume, like the SSPX,  that implicit baptism of desire is an explicit exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma.

So priests who can affirm the literal, traditional intepretation of the dogma along with implicit baptism of desire, known only to God (and saved in a manner known only to God) could  switch to the Catholic religious community Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.Their services would be needed there and they can hold on to correct doctrine with a clear conscience.-Lionel Andrades

Photos from the website Catholicism.org.Two Sisters Final Vows

FR.PETER SCOTT OF THE SSPX STILL DOES NOT ANSWER WHILE FR.BRIAN HARRISON COMMENTS

Fr. Peter Scott, former Rector of the SSPX's Holy Cross Seminary in Australia, answers questions that may be in the minds of many.However he has not responded to this comment on the blog Ecclesia Miltans.Though there is a comment from Fr.Brian Harrison. His view on this subject too, would have been appreciated.

Post a Comment On: Ecclesia Militans

"Fr. Peter Scott Answers"

Catholic Mission said...

Could Rev.Fr.Peter Scott respond to this blog post?
In Christ
Lionel Andrades

Friday, November 4, 2011
DOMINUS IESUS AFFIRMS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
Nothing in the document contradicts the dogma

Fr. Peter Scott, former, District Superior, Society of St. Pius X, USA wrote to Bishop Raymond Boland, now Emeritus Bishop of Kansas City, about Dominus Iesus in relation to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Bp Boland Letter.qxd www.sspx.org/.../Kansas_City_diocese.pdf

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/dominus-iesus-affirms-extra-ecclesiam.html

November 04, 2011 11:41 AM

Fr. Brian Harrison said...

How very sad it is that Fr. Scott maligns the new rite of Mass so unjustly!

Of course the rite approved by Paul VI and his successors is still the true propitiatory sacrifice of Calvary, offered in an unbloody manner! It is most certainly not just a Protestant-style "banquet" that offers no sacrifice other than that of human praise and thanksgiving.

If that were true, the new rite of Mass would be inrinsically invalid - something Archbishop Lefebvre himself never claimed.

In every celebration of the Novus Ordo there are at least four affirmations of the true sacrificial character of the Mass, and often five (the fifth one often being found in the "Prayer Over the Gifts" corresponding to the "Secret" in the traditional rite.

May God forgive Fr. Scott for this dreadfully unjust and misleading calumny against the Novus Ordo!

Fr. Brian Harrison, O.S.

St. Louis, Missouri

April 28, 2012 12:00 AM
______________________________________

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=27605063&postID=4453643920752627089

ARE YOU CALLED?

ARE YOU CALLED?

AVOID A COMMUNITY THAT TEACHES HERESY

It’s heresy to deny an ex cathedra dogma. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus has been defined three times.

Choose a community that affirms the dogma.

To deny the dogma is to deny the Nicene-Constantinople Creed in which we pray: ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’.

The SSPX, FSSP, IGS deny the dogma with alleged explicitly known baptism of desire etc.They assume that those saved in invincible ignorance in 2012 are known to us and so they are exceptions to the dogma. Why live in known-heresy?

Here is a community in the USA in which you can keep your conscience clear.

PHOTOS FROM THE WEBSITE CATHOLICISM.ORG

JEWISH LEFT OWNED MEDIA SPREADS MISINFORMATION ON VATICAN COUNCIL II: DOES NOT CLAIM COUNCIL SUPPORTS LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS :SUGGESTS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE KNOWN TO US IN THE PRESENT TIME

The Jewish Left owned media continues to provide false information on the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) and claims that Vatican Council II has changed the Catholic Church's teaching on other religions incuding Judaism.The media controlled by Talmud Jews keeps repeating that Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance etc) are exceptions to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They never admit that we do not known any one saved in invincible ignorance etc so it cannot be an exception to the dogma.Also no Church document states that the thrice defined dogma has been retracted.

Pastor Ted Pike using Jewish sources has updated his excellent research on how the media is controlled by one group of people whose values are pro-Satan and definintely not according to the Ten Commandments and Judaism. In the past they were opposed by the popes and the saints.They are opposed today by good Jews.(1)

-Lionel Andrades

1.

UPDATED! JEWS CONFIRM BIG MEDIA IS JEWISH

http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/jewsconfirmbigmediaupdated.html

DOES YOUR COMMUNITY BELIEVE IN A VISIBLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ?

Are you called to change your religious community ?

Photos from the website Catholicism.org

Here is one community to avoid all these problems.

http://catholicism.org/letter-to-a-young-man-discerning-a-vocation.html

DO YOU HAVE A VOCATION ?

Photos from the website Catholicism.org

Are you interested in Street Evangelization ?

Do you want to share the Faith with correct doctrines ?

Do you want to join a community which doesn’t teach that there is a visible baptism of desire ?

Do you want to save your soul?

Do you want to avoid being pushed into false ecumenism out of obedience ?

Do you want to avoid a Profession of Faith which says ‘ I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins’ but really means three ?

Here is one community to avoid all these problems.

http://catholicism.org/letter-to-a-young-man-discerning-a-vocation.html

Vatican Council II like Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre says heretics and schismatics need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation (AG 7)

The Catholic Church founded by Him and to which He entrusted all the treasures of salvation is for her part also jealous of the privileges of her sole Master and Lord, and teaches all men that they must turn towards her and be baptized by her if they wish to be saved and partake of the glory of God in a happy eternity. Thus the Church is essentially missionary. She is essentially one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman.

She cannot admit of there being any other true religion outside of her; she cannot admit that one may find any way to salvation outside of her since she identifies herself with her Lord and God who said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."

Hence she has a horror of any communion or union with false religions, with heresies, and with errors which put a distance between souls and her God who is the one and only God. She knows only unity within her fold, as does her God. For that she gives the blood of her martyrs, the life of her missionaries, of her priests, the sacrifice of her religious and nuns, she offers the daily Sacrifice of Propitiation.- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's June 1988 Public  Statement Against False Ecumenism

http://sspx.org/archbishop_lefebvre/public_statement_ab_lefebvre_june_1988.htm

Thursday, April 26, 2012

Cardinal Koch needs to accept the traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II: the SSPX rejects the version of the Council of Christian Unity,Vatican

Vatican Council II like Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 says heretics and schismatics need to convert for salvation (AG 7).

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/cardinal-koch-needs-to-accept.html#links

-Lionel Andrades

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II

Cardinal Koch needs to accept the traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II: the SSPX rejects the version of the Council of Christian Unity,Vatican

Vatican Council II like Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 says heretics and schismatics need to convert for salvation (AG 7).

Cardinal Kurt Koch assumes that his interpretation of Vatican Council II is the only one and all of us should accept it.

When the SSPX says they reject Vatican Council II they mean they reject the Koch-liberal version. When they say that they affirm ecumenism and inter religious dialogue according to Tradition, they mean they affirm in reality the traditional intepretation of Vatican Council II.

There can be no known cases of Orthodox Christians or Protestants saved in imperfect communion, the seeds of the Word or a good conscience etc as the liberal version claims.

In a a press conference on Tuesday in Vienna Cardinal Koch, the President of the Vatican Council for ecumenism said the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) needs to accept Vatican Council II, as if, implying that he  and his Vatican office for ecumenism does so.They do not accept the traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II.

The cardinal cannot  provide references from Vatican Council II to support his liberal interpretation with reference to ecumenism.

I can provide citations from Vatican Council II for my traditional intepretation of the Council. So could SSPX and the other traditonalists if they wanted to.

The liberals in Vienna are unable to cite any reference since Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance/good conscience) is not an exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Vatican Council II does not mention a single explicit reference to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So there can only be one interpretation of the Council- the traditional one. It is supported by AG 7 and LG 16 does not contradict it.

So it is important ,honesty demands it, that Cardinal Kurt Koch and the Council for Christian Unity,Vatican accept Vatican Council II according to Tradition and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

It’s time to say clearly that Vatican Council II says all Protestants and Orthodox Christians do not have Catholic Faith and and so they are oriented to Hell (AG 7).They all on earth are oriented to Hell and if there are any exceptions, I say if, since there may be none,then it would be known to God only .

-Lionel Andrades
 

 

Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II

GOD WANTS ONLY ONE CHURCH- Marcellino D'Ambrosio Ph.d

The Only Way -

What really ticked off the ancient Romans still ticks people off today—Christians have the “arrogance” to claim that Jesus is the only savior. This Sunday's readings back this idea, plus the even more offensive idea that God wants only one church, but also accounts for the fact that both truth and godly people are to be found outside the visible boundaries of the Church... -Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/922/Way__Truth__and_Life___Jesus_Only.html

__________________________________________

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.- Catechism of the Catholic Church 845

FR.TIM FINIGAN ON THE BLOG THE HERMENEUTIC OF CONTINUITY DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION: WOULD YOU KNOW ANY ADULT ON EARTH SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE OR IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ?

Also others on the blog are afraid of supporting the SSPX position on other religions ?

Here are the posts from The hermeneutic of continuity relevant to this subject. Fr.Tim Finigan has not posted my last post in which I have said: So I can conclude that none of you can answer the question: Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?

Post a Comment On: The hermeneutic of continuity

"Vatican fails to take account of my travel plans"

18 Comments

1 – 18 of 18
Catholic Mission said...

SSPX WEBSITE: ' I believe in three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins’ ?

So when the SSPX bishops and priests recite their Oath of Fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and they are asked to say aloud the Nicene Constantinople Creed, which we pray in Church, they will say 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and mean ‘I believe in three baptism for the forgiveness of sin, the baptism of water, desire and blood’.

Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer on the SSPX website,THE THREE BAPTISMS writes that Fr.Leonard Feeney in his 1952 book, Bread of Life, states on p.25:

It is now: Baptism of Water, or damnation! If you do not desire that Water, you cannot be justified. And if you do not get it, you cannot be saved."

Yes without the baptism of water no one on earth can be saved and we cannot give anyone the baptism of desire or judge who has a genuine baptism of blood (martyrdom). So obviously any non Catholic you meet needs the baptism of water for salvation.So Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct.

The baptism of desire can never ever be an exception to the need for the baptism of water. Since we cannot know any such case.

So when the SSPX bishops and priests take their oarth of fidelity to Pope Benedict XVI and they are asked to recite the Nicene Constantinople Creed they will say 'I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and mean ‘I believe in three baptism for the forgiveness of sin, the baptism of water, desire and blood’.

CONTINUED

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/sspx-website-i-believe-in-three.html

4/20/2012 11:43 AM

Fr Tim Finigan said...

The Church has held since the first centuries that someone who desires baptism will be save. The Church has also taught that this desire may be implicit.

But Baptism of desire is not sacramental baptism and therefore a person who desires baptism can and should be baptised with water when there is the opportunity.

4/20/2012 12:05 PM

Catholic Mission said...

Fr.Tim Finigan

The Church has held since the first centuries that someone who desires baptism will be save. The Church has also taught that this desire may be implicit.

Lionel:

I agree with you.

Would you agree that we do not know any case on earth of someone in 2012, having the baptism of desire and being saved?

These cases are known only in Heaven ?

Fr.Tim Finigan

But Baptism of desire is not sacramental baptism and therefore a person who desires baptism can and should be baptised with water when there is the opportunity.

Lionel:

Yes. We agree.

So would you say every one on earth with no KNOWN EXCEPTIONS needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation ? (AG 7) ?

In Christ

Lionel

4/20/2012 12:10 PM

Catholic Mission said...

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Bishop Charles Morerod O.P Oath of Fidelity: to dissent

Profession of Faith allows for dissent on ecclesiology and baptism.

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J the Secretary of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been the President of the International Theological Commission (ITC), Vatican. Bishop Charles Morerod O.P has been the Secretary of the ITC.

They have had published two papers which are available on the ITC website. In these two theological papers they have written that the Catholic Church no more teaches exclusive salvation. Since there can be those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) etc. So there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

So when they made their Profession of Faith and took an Oath of Fidelty they recited the Nicene Constantinople Creed in which we pray ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’. However they really meant that not every one on earth needs the baptism of water for salvation. There could be known people saved in invincible ignorance etc. So in actuality there is not one baptism of water for the forgiveness of sin. There are known exceptions in the present times.

There understanding of the Church is also different, even though in the Profession of Faith they said ‘ I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.’(1)

There understanding of Church is based on the false assumption that we know cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and so Vatican Council II (LG 16) and Pope Pius XII's Letter of the Holy Office 1949 have mentioned known exceptions to exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.(2)

There understanding of Church (ecclesiology) is that every one on earth with no exception does not need to enter the Church for salvation. The holy catholic and apostolic Church is not necessary for the salvation of all people with no exception.

CONTINUED

ttp://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/cardinal-luiz-ladaria-bishop-charles.html#links

4/20/2012 3:59 PM

Fr Tim Finigan said...

Perhaps the best modern magisterial treatment of this subject is Dominus Iesus.

4/20/2012 4:22 PM

Catholic Mission said...

Fr Tim Finigan

Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ?

So would you say every one on earth with no KNOWN EXCEPTIONS needs the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation in 2012 ?

4/22/2012 3:21 PM

Fr Tim Finigan said...

We do not have the certainty of faith concerning our own salvation, though we should not doubt the mercy of God. (cf. Council of Trent Decree on Justification.)

So we can't say of an individual "he is certainly saved".

But it is reasonable to think that there are many people in the world today who are in invincible ignorance.

Anyone who is not in that state does need baptism of water for salvation unless they die desiring Baptism at least implicitly.

4/22/2012 10:56 PM

Catholic Mission said...

We do not have the certainty of faith concerning our own salvation, though we should not doubt the mercy of God. (cf. Council of Trent Decree on Justification.)

So we can't say of an individual "he is certainly saved".

But it is reasonable to think that there are many people in the world today who are in invincible ignorance.

Anyone who is not in that state does need baptism of water for salvation unless they die desiring Baptism at least implicitly.

Lionel:

Yes, we agree here. There is the possibility of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.We accept this is as a possibility, of course.

Would you know any adult on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance ? I do not.

Would Mariana ,Gor,Brian or any one else in 2012 know ?

4/23/2012 3:10 PM

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=25543378&postID=8290014229259074230Fr

Tim Finigan said...

Lionel - We cannot have certainty about a particular individual's salvation unless the Church canonised someone, but it is possible for an individual to be saved if he is in invincible ignorance.

I think we have rather done this topic now.

4/23/2012 11:26 PM
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=25543378&postID=8290014229259074230

All Human Creatures Are Subject to the Pope: Eight Papal Quotes On Salvation

All Human Creatures Are Subject to the Pope: 8 Papal Quotes On Salvation

by Carlos Urbina
on Apr 18, 2012
http://www.stpeterslist.com/5130/every-human-creature-is-subject-to-the-pope-8-papal-quotes-on-salvation-outside-the-church/

PROFESSORS AT THE LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST UNIVERSITIES IN ROME SUPPORT THE SSPX POSITION ON OTHER RELIGIONS

Fr.Rafael Pascual L.C, Dean of Philosophy at the University Pontificial Regina Apostolorum(UPRA) and Mr. Corrada Gnerre a Professor of Philophical Anthropology at the Universita Europa di Roma affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

They also know that we do not know any case of a non Catholic saved who can be an exception to the defined dogma. The text of the dogma also does not mention invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire since they know at that possibilities were not defacto exceptions to the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation.

The dogma is in agreement with Vatican Council II(AG 7) and LG 16 is not an exception as is often claimed.

So Vatican Council II is in agreement with the traditional teaching of the church on ecumenism and other religions which has also been that of the traditionalists Society of St.Pius X, Institute of the Good Shepherd and the Priestly Fraternity of St.Peter (FSSP).-Lionel Andrades

LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html

CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2011/10/catholic-lay-professor-at-universita.html#links

CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME WHO OFFER THE NOVUS ORDO MASS IN ITALIAN UNKNOWINGLY SUPPORT THE SSPX POSITION ON OTHER RELIGIONS: THEY CONFIRM THAT THERE IS NO CASE KNOWN OF BEING SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE (LG 16)IN THE PRESENT TIME

So if the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 assumes that the baptism of desire contradicted the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus they made a mistake.

The participants in the Vatican-SSPX talks also did not realize that there are no explicit exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II, to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Catholic priests in Rome to whom I spoke to, say that there is no known case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.Some say quite plainly that the baptism of desire etc do not contradict the literal intepretation of the dogma. Others do not want to comment further.

They know that we have returned to the centuries old intepretation of the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and this is essentially the positon of the Society of St.Pius X on ecumenism and inter religious dialogue.

It means Vatican Council II (AG 7) says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation-just as the SSPX teaches,and there are no known exceptions, this includes invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16).

So the priests are really saying, but do not want to put it into words, that Vatican Council II holds to the traditional teaching on Hindus,Jews, Buddhists,Muslims etc.

While priests who offer Mass in Italian here admit there is no visible baptism of desire there is no such comment from SSPX theologians.The SSPX bishops still believe that Vatican Council II contradicts the traditional teaching on ecumenism and other religions.Since, the bishops assume, there is a visible baptism of desire.

The Novus Ordo-priests are pointing to the traditional teaching in Vatican Council II.

-Lionel Andrades

Rome’s Msgr. Fernando Ocariz and the SSPX’s Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize assumed Lumen Gentium 16 refers to a known exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and so to the SSPX position on other religions, ecumenism etc

Even theologian John Lamont who teaches theology in Sydney with the archdiocese approval did not notice it.(1)

 

Msgr. Fernando Ocariz an Opus Dei theologian and Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize an SSPX seminary professor of ecclesiology at Econe did not notice a key point in Vatican Council II. They just assumed that Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and so does Pope Pius XII.

 

Based on their interchange and failed conclusion the theologian John Lamont has written an account but also assuming the irrational, that is, we can actually know people in Heaven and somehow they are exceptions to the dogma which says there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. Knowing people saved in invincible ignorance and other cases in Heaven it was assumed by Gleize, Ocariz and Lamont meant there is no more exclusive salvation in the Church. There are known exceptions (LG 16) etc.

Even the ecclesiology professor at Econe like his counterparts at the Angelicum and Gregorian University in Rome holds the liberal version of the Council and that too based on an irrationality.-Lionel Andrades

 

1.

Is recognizing the SSPX questioning the Council?

http://www.sspx.org/theological_commission/is_recognizing_sspx_questioning_the_council_4-19-2012.htm

____________________________________________________________________

PREFECT OF THE SUPREME TRIBUNAL: CAN THERE BE AN ‘ECCLESIAL RUPTURE’ FOR NOT AFFIRMING ‘ A VISIBLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ AND A LIBERAL, IRRATIONAL INTERPRETATION OF THE CATECHISM AND VATICAN COUNCIL II ?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/prefect-of-supreme-tribunal-can-there.html#links

 

ECCLESIA DEI’S ADVICE TO THE INSTITUTE OF THE GOOD SHEPHERD IS SCARY

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/ecclesia-deis-advice-to-institute-of.html

SSPX -DICI SAYS ECCLESIA DEI HAS ASKED THE INSTITUTE OF THE GOOD SHEPHARD TO FOLLOW THE CATECHISM

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/sspx-dici-says-ecclesia-dei-has-asked.html

DOMINICAN, FRANCISCAN FRIARS OF THE IMMACULATE AND DIOCESAN PRIESTS NEGATE POPE BENEDICT’S OVERSIGHT AND THAT OF THE CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/dominican-franciscan-friars-of.html

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Bishop Charles Morerod O.P Oath of Fidelity: to dissent

Profession of Faith allows for dissent on ecclesiology and baptism

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/cardinal-luiz-ladaria-bishop-charles.html

PREFECT OF THE SUPREME TRIBUNAL: CAN THERE BE AN ‘ECCLESIAL RUPTURE’ FOR NOT AFFIRMING ‘ A VISIBLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE’ AND A LIBERAL, IRRATIONAL INTERPRETATION OF THE CATECHISM AND VATICAN COUNCIL II ?

I appeal to Cardinal Raymond Burke, Prefect of the Supreme Tribunal, Vatican to ask Ecclesia Dei and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF), how can we know cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire?How can they also be explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as the CDF alleges.

Evidence:

1. The Secretary of the CDF Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J on the International Theological Commission website in two position papers states that there is no more exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church since Vatican Council II (LG 16) and the documents of Pope Pius XII indicate that there are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and its literal interpretation.

2. Pope Benedict XVI in Light of the World (Ignatius) p.107 indicates that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are defacto exceptions to the dogma which taught that there is only one way of salvation and everyone needed to convert into the Church.The pope suggests that all those who are saved are saved through Jesus Christ (CCC 846) and this is the one channel. So there are explicit exceptions to the dogma and to Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation; all need to convert into the Church.CCC 846 also states all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (to avoid Hell).This was the one way, the centuries old interpretation of the Catholic Church.

I appeal to His Eminence Cardinal Raymond Burke to note that when we do not know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire how can they be explicit exceptions to the dogmatic teaching on  exclusive salvation being there in only the Catholic Church?

So why should there be an ‘ecclesial rupture’ between the CDF/Ecclesia Dei and the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX); why should there be this threat to the SSPX to accept Vatican Council II with this irrational interpretation of knowing cases on earth  saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience(LG 16)?

Why should the Institute of the Good Shepherd (IGS) accept the Ecclesia Dei advice to follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church when the CDF/Ecclesia Dei never clarifies how does the Catechism and Vatican Council II negate the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus and exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church? Vatican Council II affirms the literal interpretation of the dogma (AG 7) and there are no known exceptions(LG 16 etc). So Vatican Council II is in agreement with the SSPX position on ecumenism and other religions.

Why cannot Catholics accept the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also implicit baptism of desire and invincible ignorance?

Why does the CDF/Ecclesia Dei expect Fr.Leonard Feeney’s communities, the St.Benedict Centers, also traditionalists, in Los Angeles, Worcester and Manchester,USA to assume that the baptism of desire is a defacto exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted by Fr.Leonard Feeney, the popes, Councils,saints, Catechisms and Vatican Council I and II ? One of the communities in Los Angeles is not being recognized it is learnt since the Archbishop and just about every body there assumes that implicit baptism of desire is explicit and so is a defacto exception to the literal interpretation of the dogma held by this Catholic community in Los Angeles.

No Magisterial document claims that the baptism of desire is an explicit exception to the dogma or that these cases can be known to us personally, and so are exceptions to the traditional teaching of exclusive salvation being there in only the Catholic Church.

I have appealed to the CDF and Ecclesia Dei through this blog and have sent them copies of these blog posts over the years, hoping they would do something about this issue but they have done nothing.Now they are issuing notices to traditionalist groups to accept their liberal heresy.Foreign lobbies are openly appealing to the pope and the CDF to change Church teaching, as if this is possible, and to penalize the traditionalists for being faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

In Christ.

Mr.Lionel Andrades

Catholic Layman in Rome

E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com