Tuesday, January 31, 2012

REDEMPTORIST PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II CONTRADICTS THE DOGMA: CANNOT PROVIDE ANY CITATIONS FROM THE COUNCIL

Anti Semitism is a criminal offence in Italy. It covers Catholic religious beliefs.

The Redemptorist priest today morning realized that he could not accept the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus even though he said there is no known case of the baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience. However he wanted to justify his rejection of the dogma but could no longer refer to those saved in invincible ignorance etc. So he suggested that the dogma was contradicted by Vatican Council II.I asked him if he could cite any passage from Vatican Council II which contradicted the dogma. He said he could not remember the citations.

I mentioned that I knew the quotations. Since this is an issue I have discussed with many priests. Lumen Gentium 16 mentions invincible ignorance and being saved with a good conscience but does not state that it is an exception to the dogma or that we could know of these cases personally.

OBJECTIONS
Lumen Gentium 16
We do not know any non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience (Lumen Gentium 16).Neither do we know any one in the present times saved with the baptism of desire, the Word of God, in imperfect communion with the Church (Vatican Council II). We accept in principle the possibility of these persons being saved ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) however we do not know any such explicit case. So it is not an exception to the magisterial teachings quoted above. The Magisterial teaching says every one needs to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation, all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell. We know there are no known exceptions on earth. If there is any such case it would be known only to God.
Nostra Aetate
Nostra Aetate, Vatican Council II no where says that non Catholic religions are paths to salvation or that non Catholics are saved in general in their religion. We accept in principle the possibility of a Muslim being saved ‘in certain circumstance’ and know that these cases would be known only to God.
So Nostra Aetate is not a contradiction of Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which indicates the norm of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 846
So when the Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 say all those who are saved are saved through Jesus an the Church it does not contradict the Church teaching which says all need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/what-does-catholic-church-tech-about.html#links
It is the political position of the Jewish Left that Vatican Council II has changed Church teaching in general and especially with reference to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This the teaching of the Jewish Left shadow magisterium of Rabbis Rosen and Segni and of Abraham Foxman of the Jewish Anti Defamation League. Catholic priests and bishops who object to this teaching could be labelled anti Semitic. This is a criminal offence in Italy in which the majority of people are Catholics. -Lionel Andrades

REDEMPTORIST PRIEST SAYS WE DO NOT KNOW ANY CASE OF A PERSON SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2012/01/redemptorist-priest-says-we-do-not-know.html

REDEMPTORIST PRIEST SAYS WE DO NOT KNOW ANY CASE OF A PERSON SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE

Today morning I spoke with Fr.Giuseppe, an elderly Redemptorist priest in Rome and asked him if we can know of any case of a person saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. He answered no.

Then I asked him if he knew  any one in invincible ignorance and who is saved. He did not know any such case, of course.

Then I mentioned the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and other magisterial texts which say everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation. I said there are no exceptions.

He remarked that a person though could be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. I agreed with him that in principle we believe that this can be a possibility. I reminded him that he had just said that we do not know of any one saved with the baptism of desire etc. So how could they be exceptions?

Assuming this priest in the Redemptorist Church, where they have day time Eucharistic Adoration, said all Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians need to enter the Church for salvation.(See dogma Cantate Domino Council of Florence
http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation ). There could be protests against him by the Rabbi Ricardo Segni in Rome. Members of the ADL and B’nai Brit Italy could be phoning the Vatican offices. If this priest persisted with this official magisterial teaching there would be a campaign against him in the leftist daily newspapers in Italy. It is anti Semitism to be a faithful Catholic. There are hate laws which the Jewish Left can use against the Church.

So they control what is believed by a Catholic and which Church teaching can be  expressed by a priest.

The issue is not just being liberal or traditional it is following the law or giving offence created by the Jewish Left in Europe and abroad.-Lionel Andrades