-Lionel Andrades
JULY 31, 2020
Lefebvrists interpret Vatican Council II like the liberals and then put the blame on the Novus Ordo Mass
Friday, July 31, 2020
Lefebvrists interpret Vatican Council II like the liberals and then put the blame on the Novus Ordo Mass
Bishop Schneider lists problems in Vatican II documents that lead to ‘relativism’
‘For me the deepest problem of Vatican II is the relativization of Jesus Christ and the Gospel.’
ASTANA, Kazakhstan, July 28, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) ― The auxiliary bishop of Astana has called for the correction of texts promulgated by the Second Vatican Council that have led to “relativism.”
“I think that one day the Church should formally correct (expressions in) Lumen Gentium 16, in Nostra Aetate and also (one) in the Ecumenical Decree on Non-Christians that (says) the Holy Ghost is using them as instruments,” Bishop Athanasius Schneider told Dr. Taylor Marshall in an online interview posted Sunday.
Lionel: Could Nostra Aetate be referring to the Creator ? The Creator is one. The one God. There are good things in other religions.But the religions are not paths to salvation ( Ad Gentes 7).
God may use other Christians as instruments of salvation in a hypothetical sense only. There are no physically visible exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). So there cannot be any known exceptions to the past ecumenism of return.UR 3 ( Decree on Ecumenism) only refers to hypothetical cases. It cannot be any thing else. If someone is saved outside the Church it would only be known to God.
So Nostra Aetate, Unitatis Redintigatio and Lumen Gentium no where contradicts the strict interpretation of EENS which Schneider, Mattei, Weston and Mattei will not affirm.
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Schneider, 59, also discussed problematic phrases in Dignitatus Humanae and in Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Second Vatican Council’s document on the liturgy.
Marshall introduced the theme of the Second Vatican Council by saying both priests and laity are becoming aware that the current crisis in the Church relates to “problem passages” in the Council’s documents. Marshall listed such issues as syncretism, false ecumenism, and adulatory descriptions of Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism.
Lionel: This is the typical Lefebvrist approach with the false premise, inference and conclusion which is the same as that of the liberals.
There are good thngs in other religions but the religions are false paths to salvation. Ad Gentes 7 tells us that all need faith and baptism for salvation. All.This is never affirmed in the prudent interviews.
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Schneider said the majority of the texts of the Second Vatican Council are good, and those that are ambiguous can be interpreted within the tradition of the Church “in a benevolent way.” However, the bishop also pinpointed a few expressions in the documents that have had “very bad consequences.”
Lionel: This is the typical Lefebvrist approach.For me there are not just good and benevolent passages , the Council affirms the strict interpretation of EENS . It is Feeneyite.
This is why for me the petition of 'the 50 scholars' thanking Vigano and Schneider and then these interviews of Marshall are Lefebvrist propaganda. These traditionalists need the hermeneutic of rupture. This is approved by the liberals.
All is well for them as long as they do not affirm Vatican Council II without their common false premise.
So every year we keep getting the same Lefebvrist propaganda.
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“The greatest problem with these (problematic) texts can be reduced to one topic: relativism,” Schneider said.
Lionel: When Schneider, Marshall and Mattei cannot affirm the strict interpretation of EENS then relativism is the result.They mention the hermeneutic of rupture but they will not affirm the Council in harmony with St Ignatious of Loyola and the Jesuits of his time.They did not use the false premise to interpret EENS in the Middle Ages.
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The bishop said that these few “expressions” relativize the Lord Jesus Christ, the Gospel, the incarnation, the work of redemption, and the Catholic Church.
“All these expressions that you mentioned ultimately have their roots in relativism,” he told Marshall.
The Problem in Lumen Gentium 16
Schneider pointed first to a phrase in Lumen Gentium that incorrectly erases an important distinction between Christian and Muslim worship of God. In the sentence, “In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind”, the bishop took strong issue with the phrase “with us,” “nobiscum” in Latin.
Lionel. Could Nostra Aetate be referring to the Creator ? The Creator is one.
Are forms of worship are different, our concepts are different and there is a Hell afte we die, but the Creator is one.God is one.
However Hell exists and there is true and false worship.Other religions are false paths of salvation even though they have good things in them. The Holy Spirit can also act outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church even though salvation is restricted to only membership in the Catholic Church.
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“This is wrong,” Schneider said firmly.
He explained that Lumen Gentium 16 errs in suggesting that Christians and Muslims participate together in the same act of adoration. It errs because Muslims worship on a natural level, at the same level of anyone who adores God with the “natural light of reason,” whereas Christians adore God on a supernatural level as His adopted children “in the truth of Christ and in the Holy Spirit.”
“This is a substantial difference,” Schneider observed. He explained that the use of the phrase “with us” represents a relativization of the act of adoration of God and also of Christians’ “sonship.”
The Problem in Dignitatis Humanae
The bishop then cited a problem in a statement about religious freedom in Vatican II’s Dignitatis Humanae. Schneider praised the document for observing that nobody can be forced to believe, but then he critiqued its statement that human beings should not be constrained from worshipping according to their conscience.
Lionel: Dignitatis Humanae is here referring to a secular state. It is mentioned in the foot notes.
It is not referring to a Catholic state which affirms the strict interpretation of EENS and so there is no separation of Church and state.
Bishop Schneider needs to make the distinction between a secular and Catholic State.
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Schneider said that this was equating the right to worship idols to a right stemming from human nature, i.e. believing or not believing.
“When something is a right of human nature, it is positively willed by God,” he explained.
“If you say it is a right of your nature, you are saying that it is positively willed by God that no one should be hindered to practice and to spread, let us say, idolatry.”
Lionel : This is an opinion. This is not the way other traditionalists interpret DH.
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Schneider observed that many people are “convinced in their conscience” that they must practise idolatry and that this is opposed to divine revelation. He noted also that the problematic phrase is “substantially the same as the phrase of the Abu Dhabi document which says that the plurality or diversity of religions (...) is the wise will of God.”
“We have to be sincere and intellectually honest: this is not acceptable” the bishop said.
Lionel: For me LG 16 refers to an implicit and hypothetical case so it is not an exception to EENS, the Syllabus and the Athanasius Creed.But for Pope Francis LG 16 is an exception to Tradition. It is the same for Bishop Schneider.
Since LG 16 refers to salvation outside the Church for Pope Francis he says that God wills a plurality of religions for salvaton.
Similarly since there was salvation outside the Church for Pope Benedict; known salvation in personal cases, he would say that Jews do not have to convert into the the Catholic Church. Bishop Robert Barron extends it further and says we have a reasonable hope that most men will be saved.LG 16, LG 8, UR 3, GS 22 are exceptions to EENS for all of them.
If Bishop Schneider announces that LG 16 is not an exception to the Syllabus of Errors then he could question Pope Francis and Pope Benedict's irrationality and liberalism.Now he is part of the problem like the other Lefebvrists.
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“And these two phrases, in Lumen Gentium and in Dignitatis Humanae, too, are the root from which stemmed and developed all the relativism which we experienced in the last five decades in the life of the Church.”
Lionel. I interpret them (LG and DH) in harmony with the dogma EENS and so there is no relativism. Bp Schneider interprets EENS as having exceptions. This is the root of the relativism. So we read Vatican Council II differently.
We cannot put the blame on Vatican Council II when it is possible to interpret the Council in harmony with EENS, the Syllabus and the Athanasius Creed.
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Schneider recalled the controversial World Day of Prayer convoked by St. John Paul II in Assisi in 1986 and the veneration of the “Pachamama idol” in St. Peter’s Basilica during last October’s Synod on the Amazon. He pointed out that the logic of not hindering the conscientious worship of idols applies to the worship of Pachamama ― even within Vatican City itself.
“If it is the positive will of God that a group of Amazonian Indians ― pagans, I mean ― who venerate Pachamama not be hindered in spreading their cult, then the pope (must say) ‘I cannot hinder them because it is a right of human nature, and when it is a right of human nature, it is the positive will of God. And when God positively wills that the Amazonian Indians venerate their idol Pachamama, I cannot prohibit them because this is their right that God gave them. I can admit them even to St. Peter’s’,” Schneider explained.
Lionel: Bishop Schneider has never stated that all the pagan Amazonians are oriented to Hell outside the Church.
He has never stated that all the non Catholics in his diocese are oriented to Hell without 'faith and baptism'.
He has never said that all Protestants are oriented to Hell since they are outside the Church. His theology is Christocentric and not ecclesiocentric. This is another root to relativism.
He cannot affirm orthodoxy since there are exceptions to EENS for him. This is using the false premise.
There are exceptions of LG 16 etc in Vatican Council for EENS for him. Again this is using the false premise unlike me.This is all relativism.
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Schneider criticized texts suggesting that Buddhists and Hindus can attain illumination on their own, without “the grace of Christ,” as a heresy.
“It’s Pelagianism and relativism (saying) that Christ is not the only source,” he said.
Lionel: It is also relativism when the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and invincible ignorance are considered to be exceptions to EENS as it was known to St. Ignatius of Loyola, whose feast day it is today.
It is also relativism to project Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate, Unitatis Redintigratio texts as being exceptions to EENS. This is using the false premise.
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“So you see these texts cannot be accepted as they are.”
Lionel: We can interpret Vatican Council II with the false premise as did Archbishop Lefebvre or we an interpret the Council as I do.
The interviews of Schneider and Marshall and the petitions of Mattei-Weston are the same propaganda. They use a false premise and then are disappointed with the result which contradicts Tradition.
They are speaking in two ways. They affirm the Syllabus of Errors and they also affirm exceptions to the Syllabus. They affirm EENS and they also affirm exceptions to EENS. This is relativism.It is supported by the present two popes and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican.
For me there are no known exceptions to EENS and the Syllabus of Errors mentioned in Vatican Council II.
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Regarding Sacrosanctum Concilium, Schneider praised it for its defense of traditional liturgy, to which the Novus Ordo and the “ad populum” celebration of Mass are a “plain contraction,” he said. He believes that it, too, has problematic sections, saying it weakened the theology of specific sacraments by asking that their rites be reviewed. However, the bishop also believes that the current “Ordinary Form” of the Mass should be reformed according to the principles laid out by Sacrosanctum Concilium.
Lionel:Lefebvrists are a scandal. They interpret Vatican Council II with the false premise and reject the Syllabus of Errors, in reality.
They interpret the Catechism of Pope Pius X with the false premise and then contradict the Athanasius Creed.
They interpret EENS with a false premise, create artificial exceptions, and then criticize Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center.
They interpret Vatican Council II like the liberals and then put the blame on the Novus Ordo Mass.-Lionel Andrades
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