Verbum Panis

We have to understand that , for example, the baptism of desire can be interpreted literally or theologically. Literally there are no baptism of desire cases. This is something obvious. There is no baptism of desire case for us human beings since only God can recognise it. There is no such thing as a baptism of desire.However if you tell me, like many have that the Church teaches that there is a baptism of desire, then you are looking at this issue theologically. I would agree with you.

We have to understand that , for example, the baptism of desire can be interpreted literally or theologically. Literally there are no baptism of desire cases. This is something obvious. There is no baptism of desire case for us human beings since only God can recognise it. There is no such thing as a baptism of desire.However if you tell me, like many  have that the Church teaches that there is a baptism of desire, then you are looking at this issue theologically. I would agree with you. The Church does teach it.

But it means that a theology was created at some time when no case of the baptism of desire existed.The baptism of desire was seen as an exception to EENS when there were no baptism of desire cases.

There was no such thing as a baptism of desire for Fr. Leonard Feeney.He denied it.

So now we have a false theology. How can we today say that there is salvation outside the Church when there are no known exceptions to the dogma EENS for us? Where are the practical exceptions today?

Yet this is what was done by the liberal theologians , in 1949 and they were supported by the Masons and the secular media. Pope Pius XII and his cardinals did not issue a correction.Even Archbishop Lefebvre did not object. The error was then repeated as a kind of theme in Vatican Council II.1
-Lionel Andrades

1

SEPTEMBER 4, 2018

Now once we correct this error then today for us there is no 'magnificent movement of approach begun with the ecumenism of Vatican Council II'. Since we would be back to the old theology

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/09/message-incomplete-phineus-report-how.html

Popes and cardinals like the traditionalists misinterpret magisterial documents like the Catechism of Pope Pius X

E-mail correspondence:

Sorry  Lionel,

 But you are as wrong as  Father was. The Catholic Church has taught for centuries that there  IS such a thing as BOB, BOD and II as determined by God. Father  Fenney  took God out of the equation. Shame on him.

 The Catholic Church has taught for centuries that there  IS such a thing as BOB, BOD and II as determined by God. 

Yes but for centuries they were referring to hypothetical cases only. BOD,BOB and I.I without the baptism of water can only be hypothetical. 

This is something obvious. So they did not elaborate upon it.

So it was taught for centuries. You remember the text of St. Thomas Aquinas( screen shot) which affirms the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS?  Aquinas also mentions the man in the forest and does not state that this is a known person saved outside the Church and so is an exception to the dogma EENS.

In reality for us humans there is no such thing as baptism of desire  without the baptism of water.

So Fr. Feeney was correct when he said that there is no baptism of desire.Defacto in real life we cannot meet or see someone saved with the baptism of desire.

shame on Father Fenney who completely ruled out the possibility of Bob, Bod and II under the ownership of God himself who truly knows the mind, heart and soul of all souls  

Lionel: 

There is no known BOD.

There is no known BOD.

There is no known BOD for you, me Cardinal Cushing or Fr. Leonard Feeney.

Your thoughts of BOD have nothing to do with EENS.

This is the point I am making....

Fr. Leonard Feeney said that there is no BOD etc. Could you take this literally instead of theologically?

Hi Lionel,

I accept Salvation as described by our Catholic Church. Bob, Bod and II are correctly described by our Catholic faith and not by you, Cardinal Cushing, Father Fenney or anyone else who misunderstands that God alone can and will determine when and how Bob, Bod or II occurs all as Catholics which assures us all that there is NSOCC. 

_______________________________

I accept Salvation as described by our Catholic Church.  

I also accept Salvation as described by the Catholic Church but before 1949.

I re-interpret Vatican Council II in harmony with Salvation as it was known before 1949.

We can both agree on these sentences of yours:

I also accept Salvation as described by the Catholic Church but before 1949.

I re-interpret Vatican Council II in harmony with Salvation as it was known before 1949.

I also accept Salvation as described by the Catholic Church but before 1949.

I re-interpret Vatican Council II in harmony with Salvation as it was known before 1949. 

Lionel :

Sorry... we cannot.

Why cannot we not agree ? 

Since 'the Church' ; the popes and cardinals like the traditionalists misinterpret magisterial documents.Take  for  example the Catechism of Pope Pius X. 

For all of them 29 Q  would contradict 16Q ( and the rest of the numbers in blue).It would be an exception.This is how they all interpret it today.

For me 29Q is not an exception to the numbers in blue.Since 29Q always refers to invisible cases for me.Always.

From the Catechism of Pope Pius X

16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: 

"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into 

the Kingdom of God."

The Church in Particular

9 Q. State distinctly what is necessary to be a member of the Church?

A. To be a member of the Church it is necessary to be baptised, to believe and 

profess the teaching of Jesus Christ, to participate in the same Sacraments, and

 to acknowledge the Pope and the other lawful pastors of the Church.

24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?

A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic 

Church; it is necessary to be a living member.

27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, 

just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, 

which was a figure of the Church.

11 Q. Who are they who are outside the true Church?

A. Outside the true Church are: Infidels, Jews, heretics, apostates, 

schismatics, and the excommunicated.

13 Q. Who are the Jews?

A. The Jews are those who profess the Law of Moses; have not received

 baptism; and do not believe in Jesus Christ.

14 Q. Who are heretics?

A. Heretics are those of the baptised who obstinately refuse to believe some

 truth revealed by God and taught as an article of faith by the Catholic 

Church; for example, the Arians, the Nestorians and the various sects of Protestants.

 29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
 A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation
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-Lionel Andrades