Saturday, June 16, 2018

Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).FSSPX priests do not want to discuss this

Prevalence of the Feeney Thesis?

Now I am told that there are some upholders of this position at the FSSP church in the Dallas area, Mater Dei. Ironically the FSSPX clergy are more willing to "crack down" on "Feeneyism," possibly because it was condemned during the "good old days." This does not seem to be a "traditionalist" issue per se. The group in New Hampshire attended the Pauline Mass at a local parish under they formally reconciled with the bishop of Manchester and were granted permission to erect their own facility.
http://theradtrad.blogspot.com/2014/05/prevalence-of-feeney-thesis.html


Lionel: 
Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). I have mentioned this to FSSP priests. I tell them that LG 16 can be interpreted with an irrational premise or without it, with Cushingism or without it.So the conclusion would be different. 
Without the false premise Vatican Council II would be in harmony with the strict interpretation of the dogma EENS. But they are afraid to talk about it or proclaim it. They are afraid of being suspended. So they insist that Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong on EENS.
But what about Vatican Council II ?
How do you deal with Vatican Council II ?
There can be the familiar Cushingite interpretation of Vatican Council II or the Feeneyite version.
The FSSP priests do not want to talk about this . They are supported by the Left and the liberals.There understanding of Vatican Council II and EENS it is the same as the Neo Catechumenal Way, Focolares and Catholic Charismatic Renewal. 
The FSSP priests threathen lay members who interpret EENS with the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I), as referring to hypothetical and invisible people in the present times.They have to choose the irrational interpretation to be accepted by the FSSP priests.
But there is no other rational choice. BOD, BOB and I.I can only be hypothetical and rationally cannot be exceptions to Feeneyite EENS.
-Lionel Andrades

He is declared excommunicated but Vatican Council II is in agreement with Fr. Leonard Feeney's 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).

traditionalmass.org | Traditional Latin Mass Resources

DECREE
THE PRIEST LEONARD FEENEY IS DECLARED EXCOMMUNICATED
      Since the priest Leonard Feeney, a resident of Boston (Saint Benedict Center), who for a long time has been suspended a divinis for grave disobedience toward church authority, has not, despite repeated warnings and threats of incurring excommunication ipso facto, come to his senses, the Most Eminent and Reverend Fathers, charged with safeguarding matters of faith and morals, have, in a Plenary Session held on Wednesday 4 February 1953, declared him excommunicated with all the effects of the law.
http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=1&
Lionel:
He is declared excommunicated but  Vatican Council II is in agreement with Fr. Leonard Feeney's 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).
So was the excommunication a mistake?
Did the Holy Office 1949 make a mistake ? Now we have Vatican Council II supporting the Jesuit priest from Boston on his interpretation of EENS.-Lionel Andrades



JUNE 16, 2018


Vatican Council II supports the 'black and white position' on 'the Church's true teaching that "outside the Church there is no salvation"

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/vatican-council-ii-supports-black-and.html



Vatican Council II supports the 'black and white position' on 'the Church's true teaching that "outside the Church there is no salvation".

From the blog Catholicism

Father Z on the ‘Feeneyites’

I call to mind also the situation of the late Fr. Leonard Feeney, SJ, and his “wildcat group” the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. They took a black and white position on the Church’s true teaching that “outside the Church there is no salvation”.  This got them in hot water with the Holy See.  Eventually an understanding was hammered out. The so-called “Feeneyites” were able to be in union with the Church but without having to abjure their position about extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.-Fr.John Zuhlsdorf


Vatican Council II supports the 'black and white position' on 'the Church's true teaching that "outside the Church there is no salvation".
This is not known to Fr.John Zuhlsdorf.
-Lionel Andrades


JUNE 16, 2018

The Case of Fr. Leonard Feeney -No exceptions are mentioned in Vatican Council II to traditional EENS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-case-of-fr-leonard-feeney-no.html




JUNE 16, 2018

Vatican Council II is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesia nulla salus(EENS) as Fr. Leonard Feeney understood it
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/vatican-council-ii-is-not-exception-to.html




JUNE 16, 2018




Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus irrespective of your opinion on Fr.Leonard Feeney

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/vatican-council-ii-does-not-contradict.html



 JUNE 16, 2018

Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus - whatever may be your view of Pope Pius XII and Fr.Leonard Feeney
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/message-incomplete-things-are-really-bad.html




 JUNE 10, 2018



So is the Lepanto Foundation using irrational Cushingism or traditional Feeneyism at the June 23 conference to interpret magisterial documents? We know the answer. Traditionalists are Cushingites on Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/so-is-lepanto-foundation-using.html



JUNE 9, 2018



Speakers at the Lepanto Foundation conference in Rome on June 23 do not know that there is a mistake in Lumen Gentium 14,Vatican Council II.They should be discussing it  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-speakers-at-lepanto-foundation.html



The Case of Fr. Leonard Feeney -No exceptions are mentioned in Vatican Council II to traditional EENS

The Case of Fr. Leonard Feeney
   [Excerpt from The Reign of Mary (winter 1992)]



 This rapidly stirred up a reaction, and in April of 1949, Dr. Maluf and three other professors, all members of the St. Benedict Center, were expelled from the Jesuit house in Boston for having taught an erroneous doctrine. They claimed that all those who were not explicitly members of the visible Church were damned, and accused all those who denied this of being heretics.

   In order to explain the reasons to the press, the Very Reverend William L. Keheler, S.J., President of Boston College, declared: "They persisted in teaching, both in and outside the classroom, doctrines which contradicted the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church, ideas that fostered fanaticism and intolerance."
   The affair became a scandal when on April 17, 1949, Father Leonard Feeney publicly undertook the defense of these professors and their doctrine.
   The following day, Richard J. Cushing, the Archbishop of Boston, without any warning to the interested parties, declared to the press that Father Leonard Feeney was suspended a divinis, in the archdiocese and the St. Benedict's Center was placed under interdict...
Lionel:
O.K but now we know that Vatican Council II is not contradicting the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) as it was interpreted by Fr. Leonard Feeney.
Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorites, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threqatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest and an ordinary member of the Church.

Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church Authority, called the "imprimatur," which is prescribed by the sacred canons.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
O.K but Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
_________________

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
Vol. 14, TOLERATION, J. Pohle


But does the proposition that outside the Church there is no salvation involve the doctrine so often attributed to Catholicism, that the Catholic Church, in virtue of the principle, "condemns and must condemn all non-Catholics"? This is by no means the case. 
Yes. Vatican Council II is saying that all need faith and baptism for salvation (AG 7) and also the hypothetical cases of LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc are simply hypothetical.They are possibilities known only to God. So they are not objective exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism and hence the need for mission. Neither are LG 8 etc exceptions to the dogma EENS as it was taught by the missionaries and Magisterium of the 16th century.
Vatican Council II is Feeneyite and in harmony with the traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS. Every one needs to enter the Catholic Church with faith and baptism and there are no known exceptions, there are no exceptions for us human beings in 2018.
_________________

Baltimore Catechism No.3
A Catechism of Christian Doctrine prepared and enjoined by order of the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore
IMPRIMATURS:
Archbishop John McCloskey of New York 1885
Archbishop Gibbons Baltimore 1885
Archbishop Michael Augustine N.Y. 1901
Archbishop Patrick Hayes N.Y. 1921
NIHIL OBSTATS:
Rev. Remigius LaFort, Censor Librorum 1901
Arthur Scanlan, Censor Librorum 1921

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person (I) has been validly baptized; (2) firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and (3) dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
Lionel: Yes hypothetically, in theory. In reality we cannot know of any such case.So there is no exception mentioned here to Feeneyite EENS.
_______________________

Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.
Lionel: Yes the reference is only to a theoretical possibility, a speculative possiblity. The Baltimore Catechism has not stated here that there are known cases, as such, saved outside the Catholic Church. So there is no exception to Feeneyite EENS here.
_____________________

Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
Lionel: Yes hypothetically again. So there is no exception to EENS mentioned here.
Similarly in Vatican Council II, hypothetical cases, speculative and theoretical possibilities, are not objective exceptions to Feeneyite EENS or the past exclusivist understanding of salvation.The old understanding of the Church having the superiority in salvation, is not contradicted any where in the text of Vatican Council II.
_____________________

The New Catholic Dictionary (1929)

SOUL OF THE CHURCH


From the 16th century, the Catholic theologians expressed more definitely the theological doctrine of the distinction between the Soul and Body of the Church. . . This distinction. . . is formally expressed by Bellarmine in his study on the members of the Church. According to him, men belong to the Body of the Church by virtue of external profession of the faith, and participation in the sacraments; and to the Soul of the Church through the internal gifts of the Holy Ghost, faith, hope, and charity. He draws three general conclusions relative to the members of the Church. There are those: (a) Who belong always to both the Body and Soul of the Church; (b) Who belong to the Soul without belonging to the Body; (c) Who belong to the Body but not to the Soul. This teaching has generally been followed by Catholic theologians.

Lionel: Fine.
So there is nothing here to suggest that Vatican Council II is a rupture with the dogma EENS as it was known to St. Robert Bellarmine or Fr. Leonard Feeney.
________________________

P. Pius IX Solemn Allocution
Singulari Quadam

December 9, 1854

It is to be held of faith that none can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church . . . but nevertheless it is equally certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if that ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty in the matter in the eyes of the Lord.
(Denzinger 1641,ff.)

Lionel: Fine, every one needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation, this is Feeneyite EENS.Vatican Council II does not state that we can know or know any one saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16). So LG 16 does not refer to an objective exception to EENS.
Again, I repeat Vatican Council II supports Feeneyite EENS.
-Lionel Andrades













http://www.the-pope.com/feeneyite.html

Vatican Council II is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesia nulla salus(EENS) as Fr. Leonard Feeney understood it.

Fr Hunwicke's Mutual Enrichment


From Fr.Hunwicke's blog.
Readers with good memories may remember the tragic figure of the Boston priest Fr Leonard Feeney, who in 1949, did get himself condemned by the Holy Office for a similar heresy involving just this sort of attempt to be more traditionalist than Tradition. He maintained, citing the bull Unam sanctam, that no one would be saved who was not in full visible communion with the Catholic Church ... no nonsense about 'invincible ignorance' or anything like that. He refused to submit himself to what the Magisterium - in the person of Pius XII - actually taught on this point, and eventually incarnated his own paradox by being excommunicated.


Fr John Hunwicke
But Vatican Council II is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesia nulla salus(EENS) as Fr. Leonard Feeney understood it.
For Fr.Leonard Feeney every one needed to enter the Church as members and there were no exceptions.
So where are the exceptions to Feeneyite EENS in Vatican Council II today? There are none.
Lumen Gentium 16 mentions invincible ignorance.
It also mentions a good conscience.
So where are the non Catholics saved in 2009-2018 outside the Church in invincible ignorance or a good conscience ?
Where are the practical exceptions to Fr. Leonard Feeney?
There are none. 
So whatever is Fr.Hunwicke's opinion on Fr. Leonard Feeney there are no known exceptions to the past exclusivist ecclesiology. There are no exceptions to the pre-Vatican Council II, 'triumphalism'. There are no exceptions in Vatican Council II to the past ecclesiology for me, after Vatican Council II.
This is the staggering fact which is being overlooked by every one. Vatican Council II is pro-Fr.Leonard Feeney, pro-Tradition.-Lionel Andrades




http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2009/12/more-traditionalist-than-tradition.html

Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus irrespective of your opinion on Fr.Leonard Feeney






from the blog Introibo Ad Altare Dei

Summary and Conclusion

Rarely does heresy stay isolated. Those who deny Catholic teaching on BOD and BOB hold up as a modern day "savior" the late Jesuit, Fr. Leonard Feeney. This is a priest who:
  • was never qualified as a theologian or canonist  
  • was disobedient to his lawful superiors and refused to report to the Holy See during the reign of Pope Pius XII and defend his teachings. He was subsequently excommunicated by Pope Pius XII. 
  • taught a strange, mixed-up notion of Justification and Salvation which is rejected even by his modern day followers
  • started a "religious order" consisting of married couples with children without ecclesiastical approval and in violation of Canon Law
  • abused the children of those "religious" by raising them communally and depriving them of their mother and father as God intended
  • taught that baptized infants were not somehow in the Mystical Body of Christ and could not be considered "children of Mary"
  • sought and received reconciliation in the false Vatican II sect which will accept ANY teaching as long as it isn't the teaching of the One True Church. 
But still the bottom line is that Vatican Council II is not a rupture with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

These are all opinions above.
The fact is that there are no practical exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in 2016-2018.
So whatever is the blogger's opinion about Fr. Leonard Feeney, Vatican Council II does not contradict the 'strict interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

 After reading the title of this post, you might be thinking, "Not another discussion of Baptism of Desire (BOD) and Baptism of Blood (BOB)." Not to worry, it's not really going to be a discussion of that topic, but a related matter. Most people may not be aware that heresy is rarely ever limited to one topic. Deny one doctrine of the Faith, and you fall away completely from the Church and God's protection from error. The so-called "Boston Heresy" case involving Fr. Leonard Feeney is a perfect example.

Whatever is your opinion on the Boston Heresy case, Vatican Council II is not a rupture with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known to the Church Fathers, the Medieval Church Fathers, the Jesuits in the Middle Ages and Fr. Leonard Feeney .

No one can cite an exception in Vatican Council II to Feeneyite EENS.
Try it.
LG 8. We do not know any one in 2016-2018 who has been saved outside the Catholic Church where the true Church of Christ subsists.
We do not know any one outside the Catholic Church who has been saved with elements of sanctification and truth outside the Church.There are no such cases known to us. There  can be no practical exceptions for us human beings.
So hold whatever position you would want to on Fr. Leonard Feeney but know that Vatican Council II is not a rupture with the dogma EENS as it was known to Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center of his time.
Fr. Feeney died "reconciled" to the false Vatican II sect under Paul VI (Montini). He was never made to recant his errors. This "hero" of the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus refused to acknowledge that BOD and BOB are part of that very same dogma! 
So inspite of this opinion and so many others among traditionalists and sedevacantists we are still left with the fact that Vatican Council II does not contradict the 'strict interpretation' of the dogma EENS. There is nothing in the Council for it to be a development with reference to EENS.-Lionel Andrades


Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus - whatever may be your view of Pope Pius XII and Fr.Leonard Feeney  

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/message-incomplete-things-are-really-bad.html

Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus - whatever may be your view of Pope Pius XII and Fr.Leonard Feeney


Things are really bad. Since even after so many reports the traditionalists are not interpreting Vatican Council II in harmony with extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS). 
Whatever is their view of Feeneyism according to the secular media and even if Pope Pius XII and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre could not make a mistake for them, the reality still is that LG 8, LG 14, LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, GS 22 etc do not contradict Feeneyite EEMS. There are no practical exceptions.
LG 8 etc interpreted as just being hypothetical cases for us  humans, possibilities known only to God are not exceptions to EENS( Feeneyite) in 2018.
There is no getting around this.
Vatican Council II without wrongly assuming invisible for us cases of LG 8 etc are visible is not an exception to EENS as it was known to the missionaries and Magisterium of the 16th century.
You may agree or disagree with Fr.Leonard Feeney, you may interpret him however you want, but, Vatican Council II does not contradict EENS as it was known to St. Francis Xavier and the Jesuits in the Middle Ages.
So what do you do about this?
Roberto dei Mattei wants to do nothing.I have not met him personally but he does not respond to numerous reports on line on this subject.
Chris Ferrara is keeping quiet. A few years have passed.
Dr.John Rao organises a traditional conference annually while avoiding this issue.
Vatican Council II is not a rupture with EENS when hypothetical cases are interpreted as just being hypothetical. I call this interpretation of Vatican Council II, Feeneyism( It is not to be confused with the general interpretations of Feeneyism).
When Vatican Council II is interpreted with hypothetical cases being non hypothetical and referring to known non Catholics saved outside the Church in the present times, I call it Vatican Council II ( Cushingite).
So when interpreting Vatican Council II or the Catechisms, we can interpret the baptism of desire, the baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance with Feeneyism or Cushingism.There are two different conclusions.One is a continuity with Tradition and the other is a rupture.
We get two different results when references to BOD, BOB and I.I in the Catechism of Trent and Pius X, are interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism according to L.A.
It also changes the interpretation and understanding of the Nicene Creed.
So it is meaningless to say that Pope Pius XII 'condemned' Fr. Leonard Feeney.
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 is Cushingite and the Council Fathers ( 1960-1965), Rahner, Ratzinger, Cushing...,were Cushingites at Vatican Council II.This is why this issue had become so complicated.


So if Fr. Leonard Feeney was correct or wrong for you, Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite) is not a rupture with EENS ( Feeneyite).-Lionel Andrades



 JUNE 15, 2018

Image result for Photo John Henry Weston at conference rome photo Lifesites
John Henry Weston affirms heresy and criticizes the Vatican when they do the same http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/john-henry-weston-affirms-heresy-and.html




JUNE 15, 2018

CMTV will still not post the text of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus on its FAQ page  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/cmtv-will-still-not-post-text-of-dogma.html


 JUNE 15, 2018

Mattei's modernist media has compromised with the political Left in Italy
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/matteis-modernist-media-has-compromised.html



JUNE 14, 2018

Image result for Our Lady at Medugorje photos


Apparition theology at traditionalist conferences

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/sun-miracle-at-medjugorje-october-31.html


 JUNE 13, 2018



Fake conferences




http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/fake-conferences.html















JUNE 9, 2018










Lepanto Foundation conference this month in Rome is expected to be another non committal, prudent meeting among friends : the real problem and its solution is too sensitive for them to discuss and proclaim

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/06/lepanto-foundation-conference-his-month.html



MAY 27, 2018

Liberals cannot criticize Cardinal Raymond Burke since he accepts Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite),in harmony with EENS ( Feeneyite),the Syllabus of Errors,an ecumenism and the Social Reign of Christ the King : traditionalists at conf. next month support the New Theology

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2018/05/liberals-cannot-accuse-cardinal-raymond.html