Monday, October 15, 2012

Orthodox Christian pilgrims in Rome

They were probably Orthodox Christians. Yesterday afternoon at the Church of San. Alfonso they held a prayer service. They venerated a copy of the original icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour.


A prayer service was held by them in the Church with a reading from the Bible in the Ukrainian language. During the homily the priest mentioned the word ‘Constantinople’ three times and the words
Facciata'Turkey' or 'Turkish' once or twice.


According to Fr. Joshua, the Redemptorist priest who would offer Mass an hour later in English, the Catholic Church still teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church.


The text of the thrice defined dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7) say all need to convert, all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.


So those Orthodox Christians are outside the Church. The pilgrims at the church would need to convert for salvation.


They may be baptized and have valid Sacraments, but according to Vatican Council II (AG 7) they need Catholic Faith.


It’s similar to a Catholic who has access to valid Sacraments and the baptism of water. If a Catholic dies with un-Confessed mortal sin on his soul, he is oriented to Hell at the time of death.


His baptism though precious, would be of no value. Jesus’ Death and Resurrection would be of no value to this Catholic, since he has not availed of God’s Mercy available to him, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Similarly Orthodox Christians cannot enter the Catholic Church which is a different religion. Orthodox Christians are in schism, which is a mortal sin. An Orthodox Christian who knows this,and still does not enter is in grave sin.


Joint evangelization could take into account that Orthodox Christians are oriented to Hell according to Vatican Council II and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, specifically mentions them.


Amongst the pilgrims yesterday we cannot point out to anyone who will be saved in invincible ignorance etc and who is an exception to the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church and to Vatican Council II.-Lionel Andrades

REDEMPTORIST PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF NOR THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/10/redemptorist-priest-says-vatican.html#links



Cardinal Richard Cushing contributed to the illusion of the baptism of desire being an exception to the ordinary means of salvation chosen by God

Here is a comment on one of the posts on this blog
Anonymous:
If God is not bound by His Sacraments, He would make Himself untrustworthy. He has bound Himself by His Word, and will not (and cannot) deceive us.

Lionel:
Those who cannot say that we do not know any case of the baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance have difficulty here.Those who assume that the baptism of desire is known to us explicitly would have difficulty here.They would assume that the baptism of desire is an exception and so it is being said that the dogma has explicit exceptions.

Those who know that we do not know any exceptions, and that they are irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma, know that this is not an issue.

The baptism of water is the ordinary means of salvation we all agree here.

If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God. So it does not contradict the ordinary, normal way chosen by God for us to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.

It was Cardinal Richard Cushing who contributed to the illusion of the baptism of desire being an exception to the ordinary means of salvation chosen by God.

Anonymous :
I think it is the Church that says angels cannot baptize.

Lionel:
If God chose to send an angel to baptize someone it is possible. God being God.
However we cannot know of any such case. So it does not contradict the teaching of the dogma extra ecclesiam, which says all must convert. It does not also contradict Vatican Council II (AG 7 ) which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.-Lionel Andrades

BISHOP RAFFAELLO MARTINELLI SAYS THE CHURCH KNOWS OF NO MEANS TO SALVATION OTHER THAN THE BAPTISM OF WATER
However because of the Richard Cushing error he also says that we can hope for the salvation of all infants who die before baptism.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/09/bishop-raffaelo-martinelli-says-church.html