Saturday, May 31, 2014

Joseph Shaw, Gavin D'Costa obedient to Cardinal Vince Nicols are misleading lay Catholics

New Cardinal Vincent Nichols waits to greet visitors in the Vatican on February 22, 2014 in Vatican City, Vatican. 19 new cardinals were created by Pope Francis earlier today in a ceremony at St Peter's Basilica.
Joseph Shaw, Gavin D'Costa obedient to Cardinal Vince Nicols are misleading lay Catholics and misrepresenting the Catholic Faith.
Lay Catholics who have not studied theology and philosophy are being taught to reason with an irrational premise.They are told that this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. It is said that Vatican Council II ( with the false premise) is a rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. 

Gavin D'Costa a Catholic professor of theology says in public  with Cardinal Vince Nicols' permission, on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales (CBCEW) that the Church teaches that all do not need to enter ; to convert into the Catholic Church.

He is inferring for rank and file Catholics :-

 1.Those saved with ' a ray of the Truth' or 'seeds of the Word'  are visible to us on earth.
2.These deceased can be seen on earth and they were saved without needing to enter the Church with 'faith and baptism'(AG 7).So they are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
3.All salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is visible to us on earth and so Vatican Councl II is a break with the past. It is a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
4.Catholics in general know of people saved in England saved in 'imperfect communion with the Church'(UR 3), 'elements of sanctification and truth' (LG 8), invincible ignorance (LG 16),These deceased now in Heaven are personally known and seen in England or elsewhere.
5.Those Catholics who do not infer as such are rejecting magisterial teaching.They are rejecting Vatican Council II with the false premise.
6.Those who do not accept Vatican Council II with the false premise are heretical, pro SSPX traditionalists or sedevacantists.They are not  Catholics.
7.The Church Councils which defined the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus made a mistake. They did not know that the baptism of desire was an explicit exception.
8.Vatican Council II contradicts itself. Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism for salvation) contradicts Lumen Gentium 16 ( non Catholics can be saved explicitly in invincible ignorance)
 Etc.

Joseph Shaw will not criticize/correct the error made by Gavin D'Costa on the website of the CBCEW.
Neither will he proclaim that :
1. All need to enter the Catholic Church in England in 2014 with faith and baptism for salvation and there are no known exceptions.
2.There are no known exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, those of the Church Councils and popes.
 
So in public he holds on to the same irrationality and error of Gavin D'Costa on the CBCEW website.This is supported by the Cardinal-Archbishop of Westminister, Vince Nicols.
 
Joseph Shaw will allow all those Catholics who attend the Traditional Latin Mass in England to use the same irrational inference as he does.There is no Church-text which makes this inference but he will not say this in public. He ignored it at the last LMS One Day Conference in London.
 
His irrational position is politically correct in England. Joseph Shaw lecturers at Oxford where the Catholics and Protestants interpret Vatican Council II with the irrational inference.
 
Joseph Shaw the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society has academic degrees in philosophy and theology and is misleading other Catholics who are not academically qualified like him and who attend the Traditional Latin Mass.
 
I do not like to criticize Cardinal Vince Nicols, Joseph Shaw and Gavin D'Costa  but it would be obvious to even a Protestant or other non Catholic, that they are teaching irrationality and are using a false premise in the interpretation of Vatican Councl II. They are misleading other Catholics who do not know theology  and who assume that this is a teaching in the text of the Council and the Catechism.The Catholic professors at the Universities of Bristol and Oxford are promoting a falsehood in the Catholic Church with the assistance of the bishops of England and Wales.
-Lionel Andrades
 

Joseph Shaw removes comments

Joseph Shaw has removed comments from his blog post LMS Chairman related to the Conference held last Saturday in London in which Bishop Schneider and others spoke about Vatican Council II , the liturgy and evangelisation. He has removed the comments stating that they were not related to the subject.
In the comments I had expressed my view . I said that Vatican Council II without the use of  a false premise by Joseph Shaw and Bishop Athanasius Schneider, was in perfect harmony with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the traditional understanding of evangelisation. So my view was related to the subject of the conference.He did not want to discuss it.

  Joseph  Shaw says in a comment that he affirms all the Church Councils and the teachings on salvation.However he  does not clarify, when asked,  if he interprets these magisterial documents, including Vatican Council, with an irrational premise (of being able to see the dead saved who are living exceptions to the dogma on salvation).So when he says he accepts the the Church Councils and Vatican Council II (AG 7), is it with or without the irrational premise.One view is traditional the other is heresy.
 
Even the liberal Gavin D'Costa would say that he accepts all the teachings of the Catholic Church and for him the Church teaches( he says so on a video) that all do not need to enter the Church for salvation. He infers there are exceptions.
 
For Joseph Shaw who is the Chairman of the Latin Mass Society, it would be normal for a Catholic priest or lay person, to offer or attend the Traditional Latin Mass, while inferring that there are known exceptions to the traditional and ex cathedra teachings on salvation. He probably affirms this error at Oxford where he is a lecturer on philosophy.
 
So his message to Catholics, who attend the TLM and do not know philosphy or theology, is that there are EXCEPTIONS to the traditional teaching of popes and saints. He is telling them that when Jesus said 'Go out and proclaim the Good News and baptize all nations in my name', all in England, do not need to be baptized since there are some EXCEPTIONS known to Gavin D'Costta and Joseph  Shaw. There is a change in the traditional understanding of the Great Commission.
 
Even though I said that Vatican Council II is in agreement with Tradition, Joseph Shaw will not affirm this, neither will be correct me, even after studying philosophy and theology.
-Lionel Andrades

Joseph Shaw responds but only about being rude,boring and spam

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/joseph-shaw-responds-but-only-about.html#links

Joseph Shaw professor of philosophy still does not answer two questions

Joseph Shaw:
I am, obviously, completely happy to affirm the teachings, confirmed by anathemas, of all the General Councils, including those on the question of salvation outside the Church.
 
Lionel:
Are you saying that all need to enter the Catholic Church in England in 2014 with faith and baptism for salvation and there are no known exceptions ?

There are no known exceptions mentioned in Vatican Council II to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, those of the Church Councils and popes ?
 

Michael Voris, Robert Sungenis still have a problem with theology : reasoning with a false premise

 
I have not seen the series Baptize All Nations  hosted by Michael Miller  on ChurchMilitant TV.I could guess that it is assumed that every one needs Catholic Faith with the baptism of water EXCEPT for those in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. That EXCEPT would indicate the theology of Michael Voris and Robert Sungenis.
They would say outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation and all need to convert into the Church EXCEPT ...except for some people who do not have to convert in the present times, since they will be saved with ' a ray of the Truth' or baptism of desire. So Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong for them.
When it is said that Fr.Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong for not inferring that the baptism of desire is visible  for us, theology goes off track.
Voris and Sungenis will then extend their 'except-theology' to Vatican Council II.
Nostra Aetate 2 is an exception to Tradition since obviously ( for those who reason with a false premise,) the person saved with a 'ray of the Truth' is a visible,exception for them.
If  the  deceased-saved, in this case, were not visible, Voris and Sungenis  would be saying that Vatican Council II is not ambiguous. Now since there are EXCEPTIONS Vatican Council II is for them and Cardinal Kaspar and Bishop Schneider,  ambiguous.It is a break with Tradition.Some parts of Vatican Council II support Tradition for them and some do not. The parts which do not support Tradition, they do not realize, are the passages they interpret with the false premise.
 
If there were no EXCEPTIONS then Vatican Council would be in harmony with the literal interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.
Like lay Catholics,people in general and the Church of Nice, Voris and Sungenis use the false premise ( the dead-saved who are EXCEPTIONS to the dogma). This is their theology.They reason rationally but with an irrational premise.
May be it would be anti-Semitic if they say that all Jews need to convert ( see video) into the Catholic Church for salvation and there can be no known exceptions.So they don't say it.They avoid theology.They will vaguely say that Jews and others need to convert ( see video) but they will not enter into uncomfortable theology.
ChurchMilitant TV's Simon Rafe in correspondence with me uses the except-theology,with the false premise.So he is not really saying all need to convert into the Church.It is the 'except-theology' again of the Church of Nice.
There is a Church of Nice video on the websites of the University of Bristol and the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.It says clearly that all do not need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation. Those saved with ' a ray of the Truth' or 'seeds of the Word(AG 11) are EXCEPTIONS.
Voris and Sungenis will not challenge this since they want to stay away from  theology like many good Catholics.Many things don't tie up, since they do theology with the Church of Nice  false premise ( the dead saved with a ray of the Truth are visible to them, so they are EXCEPTIONS).
Gavin D'Costa a Catholic professor of theology who makes this non traditional statement on the video, uses the false premise and then creates a new theology. It is a new doctrine for the Catholic Church. A Cushingite, he uses Cushingism and Voris and Sungenis stand back in frightful awe.
If Voris and Sungenis would protest at this statement of D'Costa ( and they don't) the Church of Nice would come back and say this was the decision of the magisterium in the Boston Case of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
End of the matter. Case closed.
 
Then ignorant of theology the two of them would bow before the Church of Nice and the leftist powers that uphold them - and leave the issue.
They will not respond by saying that if the 'magisterium' corrected Fr.Leonard Feeney 's traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus they were using a false premise.It was an irrational inference.The 'magisterium' was inferring that the dead saved with the baptism of desire or a ray of the Truth were EXCEPTIONS . A dead man is an exception?
This is not theology! This is rationality. This is Cushingism.
So like the rest of the sheep (herd) Voris and Sungenis will bleat about known exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
If only they would  explain to the Church of Nice that they accept being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire but for them these cases are possibilities and not known realities.They are hypothetical and not seen in real life, they are accepted in principle( de jure) but are not known defacto, in 2014.
 
Similarly they do not reject being saved with 'a ray of the Truth' or 'imperfect communion with the Church'(UR 3), 'seeds of the Word', 'elements of sanctification and truth' (LG 8). Vatican Council II , they could say apologetically, is referring to a probability, a possibility and not a known reality.The Council is not referring to AN EXCEPTION  to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The text also does not make this claim.
For it to be an exception, they could explain to their Church of Nice critics, it would have to be visible and not invisible, objective and not just accepted subjectively, tangible and not intangible.
 
They could defend themself by saying 'one can have it both ways'. One can accept invisible for us,'a ray of the Truth' AND ALSO ACCEPT that all non Catholics have to enter the Catholic Church visibly( with faith and baptism-AG 7) in the present time ( defacto- time). 
They can accept an implicit  for us baptism of desire and an explicit for us extra ecclesiam nulla salus ; all visibly having to enter the one, true Church.
They can affirm implicit baptism ( baptism of desire) along with the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney and Pope Pius XII.
So theologically they would not be denying NA 2, UR 3 etc when they make the  distinction between implicit-explicit,invisible-visible etc.
They would not be violating Aristotle's Principle of Non Contradiction since what is implicit is not an exception to  that which is explicit.To be an exception something has to be explicit.
Presently Gavin D'Costa and his Church of Nice are smug. They know that Sungenis, Voris and the rest of the traditionalists are confused over theology. The traditionalists, including the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney still do theology inferring that  ' a ray of the Truth' or the baptism of desire, ARE KNOWN EXCEPTIONS, visible in the flesh, EXCEPTIONS to the literal interpretation of that great priest from Boston, Fr.Leonard Feeney.
I don't expect Voris or Sungenis to comment on this post, since they are still stuck in the mud with the old programming on the visible-dead.
-Lionel Andrades