Talks on Vatican Council II being in harmony with Tradition and there being Two Interpretations of the Council, one is rational and the other is irrational : Pope Francis is Magisterial on Vatican Council II when he interprets the Council with a Rational Premise only : The College of Cardinals must do the same before they elect a new pope

JULY 20, 2023

Talks on Vatican Council II being in harmony with Tradition and there being Two Interpretations of the Council, one is rational and the other is irrational

 

TALKS ON VATICAN COUNCIL II BEING IN HARMONY WITH TRADITION AND THERE BEING TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF THE COUNCIL, ONE IS RATIONAL AND THE OTHER IS IRRATIONAL.

If you are a group of Catholics, liberal or traditionalist, I am willing to speak about this subject. I can present the material on this blog in an orderly way for you to understand quickly what I keep writing about. I available am in Rome ( only Rome) and there is no charge. The information will be given free. It will be illustrated with some graphics and photos.

I am a Catholic and I affirm the teachings of the Catholic Church as I have said often on this blog.

The difference between me and Catholics in general and also the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican,  is that they interpret Vatican Council II, the Creeds, Catechisms, Councils etc  irrationally and I am rational.

I choose a rational premise and inference and so my conclusion is traditional.

The presentation could take 20 minutes or less.I will be available to answer questions.I do not have any new theology to offer. I simply avoid an irrational observation and we return to the old theology of the Magisterium and missionaries of the 16th century at the Latin Mass. This would be the general theology today, which is honest and rational, at every Mass and every Rite. It would have to be the lex orandi.

Please e-mail me at : lionelandrades10@gmail.com

p.s I do not have a telephone contact number and do not travel out of Rome.

ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH      SOLAMENTE LA CHIESA CATTOLICA

Lionel Andrades

Catholic lay man in Rome. Writer on the discovery of the two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one is rational and the other is irrational, one is interpreted with the false premise and the other without it. One is Magisterial and the other, the common one, is non Magisterial.How can the Holy Spirit make an objective mistake ? So it is human error and not the Magisterium.

 Vatican Council II is dogmatic and not only pastoral.

It is the same for the Creeds and Catechisms. There can be two interpretations.Catholics must choose the rational option.

Why should Catholics choose an irrational version which is heretical, nontraditional and schismatic, when a rational option is there which is traditional?

It is unethical when the popes, cardinals and bishops choose the Irrational Premise to interpret Vatican Council II and other Magisterial Documents.

Blog: Eucharist and Mission (eucharistandmission)

E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com

Twitter : @LionelAndrades1

JANUARY 20, 2018

ARE YOU A CATHOLIC? CHECK THE BLOG EUCHARIST AND MISSION (LIONEL'S BLOG)

àà

-Lionel Andrades

JULY 20, 2023

Discorsi/conversazioni sul Concilio Vaticano II in armonia con la Tradizione e sull'esistenza di due interpretazioni del Concilio, una razionale e l'altra irrazionale

 

Se siete un gruppo di cattolici, liberali o tradizionalisti, sono disposto a parlare di questo argomento. Posso presentare il materiale su questo blog Eucharist and Mission ( Lionel’s blog), in modo ordinato, in modo che tu possa capire rapidamente di cosa continuo a scrivere. Sono disponibile a Roma (solo Roma) e non ci sono spese. Le informazioni saranno fornite gratuitamente. Sarà illustrato con alcuni grafici. 

Sono Cattolico e affermo gli insegnamenti della Chiesa Cattolica come ho detto spesso su questo blog eucharistandmission.

La differenza tra me ei Cattolici in generale e anche il Dicastero per la Dottrina della Fede, Vaticano, è che loro interpretano il Concilio Vaticano II, i Credo, i Catechismi, i Concili ecc. in modo irrazionale e io sono razionale. 

Scelgo una razionale premessa e inferenza e quindi la mia conclusione è tradizionale. 

La presentazione potrebbe durare 20 minuti o meno. Sarò disponibile a rispondere alle domande. Non ho nessuna nuova teologia da offrire. Evito semplicemente un'osservazione irrazionale e ritorniamo alla vecchia teologia del Magistero e dei missionari del XVI secolo alla Messa in latino. Questa sarebbe la teologia generale oggi, che è onesta e razionale, ad ogni Messa e ad ogni Rito. Dovrebbe essere la lex orandi. 

Per favore mandami un'e-mail a: lionelandrades10@gmail.com 

Lionel Andrades

Cattolico laico a Roma

p.s non ho un recapito telefonico e non viaggio fuori Roma. 

 SOLAMENTE LA CHIESA CATTOLICA  ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

JULY 17, 2023

The College of Cardinals are not eligible to vote at the next Conclave to elect a pope, if they are dishonest and interpret Vatican Council II irrationally and not rationally.

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/07/the-college-of-cardinals-are-not.html

JULY 28, 2023

Things have changed in the Church. You can know more tell me that you justify your liberalism with Vatican Council, since I can justify my orthodoxy, also with Vatican Council II

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/07/things-have-changed-in-church-you-can.html

TALKS ON VATICAN COUNCIL II BEING IN HARMONY WITH TRADITION AND THERE BEING TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF THE COUNCIL, ONE IS RATIONAL AND THE OTHER IS IRRATIONAL.

If you are a group of Catholics, liberal or traditionalist, I am willing to speak about this subject. I can present the material on this blog in an orderly way for you to understand quickly what I keep writing about. I available am in Rome ( only Rome) and there is no charge. The information will be given free. It will be illustrated with some graphics and photos.

I am a Catholic and I affirm the teachings of the Catholic Church as I have said often on this blog.

The difference between me and Catholics in general and also the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican,  is that they interpret Vatican Council II, the Creeds, Catechisms, Councils etc  irrationally and I am rational.

I choose a rational premise and inference and so my conclusion is traditional.

The presentation could take 20 minutes or less.I will be available to answer questions.I do not have any new theology to offer. I simply avoid an irrational observation and we return to the old theology of the Magisterium and missionaries of the 16th century at the Latin Mass. This would be the general theology today, which is honest and rational, at every Mass and every Rite. It would have to be the lex orandi.

Please e-mail me at : lionelandrades10@gmail.com

p.s I do not have a telephone contact number and do not travel out of Rome.

ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH      SOLAMENTE LA CHIESA CATTOLICA

Lionel Andrades

Catholic lay man in Rome. Writer on the discovery of the two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one is rational and the other is irrational, one is interpreted with the false premise and the other without it. One is Magisterial and the other, the common one, is non Magisterial.How can the Holy Spirit make an objective mistake ? So it is human error and not the Magisterium.

 Vatican Council II is dogmatic and not only pastoral.

It is the same for the Creeds and Catechisms. There can be two interpretations.Catholics must choose the rational option.

Why should Catholics choose an irrational version which is heretical, nontraditional and schismatic, when a rational option is there which is traditional?

It is unethical when the popes, cardinals and bishops choose the Irrational Premise to interpret Vatican Council II and other Magisterial Documents.

Blog: http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/

Eucharist and Mission (eucharistandmission)

E-mail: lionelandrades10@gmail.com

Twitter : @LionelAndrades1

There is no denial from Catholic Answers : They interpret Lumen Gentium 15 and Unitatis Redintigratio 3 irrationally

I have been sending these blog posts to Catholic Answers. I have e-mailed them. There is no denial or comment from them. They have been interpreting Vatican Council II irrationally unlike me. I choose to interpret the Council rationally. So I support Feeneyite extra ecclesiam nulla salus, like Brother Peter Dimond. - Lionel Andrades

 

JULY 23, 2023

Trent Horn says that Protestants and other Christians are part of the Catholic Church because of their baptism even though they do not have Catholic faith and do not accept the Sacraments. This is a new doctrine. It is possible for him to say this since he interprets Vatican Council II (UR 3 etc) irrationally.

Trent Horn says that Protestants and other Christians are part of the Catholic Church because of their baptism even though they do not have Catholic faith and do not accept the Sacraments. This is a new doctrine. It is possible for him to say this since he interprets Vatican Council II (UR 3 etc) irrationally.

Trent Horn says that Protestants and other Christians are part of the Catholic Church because of their baptism even though they do not have Catholic faith and do not accept the Sacraments. This is a new doctrine. It is possible for him to say this since he interprets Vatican Council II (UR 3 etc) irrationally.

Vatican Council II says Protestants can be saved in ‘imperfect communion’ ( UR 3) and God has not restricted them from salvation.UR 3 states this, since outside the Church there is known salvation was the new teaching of the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office. It was accepted by Pope Paul VI.

So   Rahner, Ratzinger, Bea and others at Vatican Council II, in principle, believe that outside the Catholic Church there is known salvation. They allege irrationally that  there are personally known non Catholics saved.In other words there are visible people saved without the baptism of water.The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was made obsolete in 1949-Boston by the Americanists.

But we know practically, there can be no known case of a Protestant being in Heaven  who is saved outside the Catholic Church. In our human reality there is no such person visible - who can contradict the dogma EENS.

So it is wrong for Trent Horn to interpret LG 15 as a visible case in 1965-2023 and an exception for the dogma EENS.We do not know any one in particular who is saved in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church ( UR 3 etc). It is wrong to assume that the Mystical Body of Christ exists in general, outside the visible boundaries of the Church .There are no objective cases. It is irrational for him to suggest that there is known salvation outside the institutional Church. We do not know of any such case in 2023.

The 1949 mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office (LOHO) was repeated by Rahner and Ratzinger in 1965.This is unacceptable.The 1949 LOHO was irrational, non traditional, heretical and schismatic.

For me LG 8,14,15 and 16 refer to hypothetical cases.So there is nothing in the text of Vatican Council II to contradict the Athanasius Creed.This Creed says all need to be members of the Catholic Church for salvation. All need Catholic faith and the baptism of water for salvation ( AG 7, LG 14). All.So Vatican Council II ( AG 7, LG 14)  does not exclude Catholic faith.

Without the Catholic Sacraments, Protestants cannot be saved. They are outside the Church without Catholic faith.The Council is saying that only the baptism of water is not sufficient. Since over time a person can commit mortal sins of faith in ignorance or other reason. The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and this does not include all the Christian denominations.

This is the Conciliar teaching when UR 3 etc are interpreted only rationally i.e invisible cases are invisible and not visible.

There were some or many in 1965  who were using the New Theology of the 1949 LOHO, based upon the invisible-visible confusion, to suggest that there is known salvation outside the Catholic Church.So it was wrongly inferred that there are objective exceptions for the traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS.

Trent Horn is interpreting Vatican Council II with this hermeneutic of rupture with Tradition.I interpret the Council with the hermeneutic of continuity with the dogma EENS, the Athanasius Creed, the Syllabus of Errors , the Catechism of Pope Pius X and the rest of Tradition.

For me UR 3 is not break with Tradition as  cited by Brother Peter Dimond.LG 8,14, 15 and 16 are also only hypothetical cases. So they cannot be objective exceptions for EENS in 2023.- Lionel Andrades

JULY 22, 2023

Like Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Prefect of the CDF, Catholic Answers interprets Vatican Council II irrationally. They also reject the Church Councils and Church Fathers on EENS and the reference to Tradition by Brother Peter Dimond

In this video Trent Horn is irrational and political. He is projecting Lumen Gentium (8, 14, 15,16 etc) as being physically visible examples of salvation outside the Church in 1965-2023.So for him these are exceptions for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS). So he criticizes Brother Peter Dimond.

But Peter Dimond corrects Trent Horn by quoting traditional sources, which do not mention any exceptions.

HOW CAN LUMEN GENTIUM 8,14,15 & 16 REFER TO PHYSICALLY VISIBLE CASES

How can Lumen Gentium 16 for example, refer to a physically visible non Catholic saved outside the Church? How can it be a visible exception for the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) ?.Common sense tells us that these are  invisible cases for us human beings.They can only be  known to God. For us humans these are only hypothetical and theoretical cases. But this was not known to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith when they issued their Letter to the Archbishop of Boston with reference to Fr. Leonard Feeney. It was also not known to the CDF in 1965. The CDF did not interpret Vatican Council II rationally.

The Church Fathers interpreted the baptism of desire , baptism of blood etc rationally like me and not irrationally like Jimmy Akins and Trent Horn

So like Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Prefect of the CDF, Catholic Answers interprets Vatican Council II irrationally They also reject the Church Councils on EENS which Brother Peter Dimond quotes.

• Since they interpret Vatican Council II irrationally they are also interpreting the Creeds irrationally.The Athanasius Creed is made obsolete by Catholic Answers. The Creeds are connected to the interpretation of Vatican Council II. This is a discovery.

Trent Horn interprets Vatican Council II as a rupture with Tradition but for me there is continuity with Tradition.

Catholic Answers accepts the 1949 Letter of the CDF which confuses invisible cases of the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance as being visible exceptions for Feeneyite EENS.I avoid this mistake.

I AVOID THE INVISIBLE PEOPLE ARE VISIBLE CONFUSION

So for me what Rahner, Ratzinger, Congar, Murray, Kung, Ottaviani, Bea and Lefebvre said or did at Vatican Council II is irrelevant. Since I can interpret Vatican Council II rationally in harmony with Feeneyite EENS. I simply avoid the invisible people are visible confusion. The Council then supports EENS according to the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) of Pope Honorius III.It  did not mention any exceptions. This was the understanding  EENS also of St. Dominic Guzman and his friends who founded the Dominican Order at that time.

The Bible supports the strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is Feeneyite like Brother Peter Dimond and not Cushingite, like it is for Catholic Answers.

WHEN I MEET A HINDU, BUDDHIST OR SIKH

So when I meet Hindus, Buddhists or Sikhs I know that they are oriented to Hell without faith and baptism (AG 7, LG 14, CCC 845,846, 1257). Catholic faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation. I cannot know of any extraordinary means of salvation.Only God can know of an extraordinary means of salvation.

Since ethically, Vatican Council II can only be interpreted rationally, there can only be the past exclusivist ecclesiology at Mass, in Latin or the vernacular. We have only one interpretation of the Council and it is rational. With the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS) today the same as it was for the missionaries in the 16^th century, we can only have the lex orandi of the past. Since the Council is in harmony with the ecclesiology of the 16^th century Roman Missal. The New Missal does not affirm the dogma EENS since it interprets Vatican Council II rationally.

AN APOLOGIST HERE  CHANGES THE INTERPRETATION OF THE CREEDS

How can an apologist of Catholic Answers be called Catholic, when he changes the interpretation of the Creeds etc for political - Left reasons? This is ideological and not Catholic.

Peter Dimond did not correct him on this point since the Most Holy Family Monastery also interprets the baptism of desire (BOD), baptism of blood (BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance (I.I)  irrationally and so Vatican Council II is a break with Tradition for him too.

AT VATICAN COUNCIL II THE ATTACK WAS ON EENS

At Vatican Council II the attack was on EENS. They thought they could get rid of the salvation dogma by re-interpreting invisible cases of BOD, BOB and I.I as being visible examples of salvation outside the Church. So there were allegedly known people, non Catholics, saved without Catholic faith and the baptism of water.

So there are many statements in Vatican Council II based upon this error. Otherwise why would they have to mention LG 8, 14, 15 and 16?

The popes only have teaching authority today when they affirm the strict interpretation of  extra ecclesiam nulla salus like the Church Councils. It is not magisterial or apostolic to re-interpret the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance irrationally to produce a rupture with the popes and saints over the centuries on the salvation dogma.There is no teaching authority when Vatican Council II is interpreted irrationally.

However, we have undone their bad work. Their bad philosophy and theology which is not Catholic can be replaced. We have made Rahner, Congar, Ratzinger, Balthazar and others obsolete now. We now have to go back to the old moral and faith theology. Since the New Theology and New Ecclesiology is based upon Vatican Council II irrational. So we are not obliged to follow them.

CATHOLIC ANSWERS WOULD ONLY BE MAGISTERIAL WITH VATICAN COUNCIL II RATIONAL 

Pope Francis, the cardinals, bishops and Catholic Answers  would be Magisterial on Vatican Council II only when they interpret the Council rationally. They are irrational presently.

When they interpret the Creeds, Councils and Catechisms irrationally they are not magisterial. Instead they are heretical and schismatic. This is a mortal sin of faith.

Jimmy Akins and Trent Horn and the other apologists at Catholic Answers are also unethical when they choose an irrational premise (invisible people are visible, LG 16 refers to a visible non Catholic saved outside the Church), irrational inference (LG 8, 14, 16 etc are visible examples of salvation outside the Church and so are objective exceptions for the dogma EENS) and  non-traditional conclusion (Vatican Council II is a rupture with Tradition, EENS, original interpretation of the Creeds etc). 

I CHOOSE THE ETHICAL OPTION

I choose the ethical option. I choose a rational premise (invisible people are invisible, LG 16 refers to an invisible non Catholic saved outside the Church), irrational inference (LG 8, 14, 16 etc are invisible examples of salvation outside the Church and so are non objective. Invisible cases cannot be practical exceptions for the dogma EENS. I choose the rational and  non-traditional conclusion (Vatican Council II is not a rupture with Tradition ( EENS, original interpretation of the Creeds etc).It has the hermeneutic of continuity with the Fourth Lateran Council II ( 1215) and the Council of Florence (1442)  which defined the dogma EENS.  

Catholic Answers is not telling the truth to Catholics so that the apologists can be politically correct with the Left.        -Lionel Andrades

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/07/message-incomplete-in-this-video-trent.html

https://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2023/07/trent-horn-says-that-protestants-and.html

___________________________________________________________________

JULY 21, 2023

Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark implies the 'seeds of the Word' in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation and these exceptions are explicitly known

 

 NOVEMBER 1, 2011

Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark implies the 'seeds of the Word' in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation and these exceptions are explicitly known

The Conference of Catholic Bishops of England and Wales webite rejects the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7) and Dominus Iesus.The English bishops are changing the Catholic Church’s teaching on Faith just as they have done so on morals.
According to Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark who is the Chair of the Committe for Relations with Other Religions the ‘seeds of the Word’ are present in other religions implying that we know of particular cases so every non Catholic with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation. This is the rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).

The report placed by the Committee for Relations with Other Religions contradicts Daphne McLeod, Chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice,England. Her message is that the possible exceptions in Vatican Council II are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.(1).

Vatican Council II does not oppose the centuries-old interpretation of the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.The  possibility of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance,the baptism of desire, or the ‘seeds of the Word’ as the Bishops state here, does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which tells us that every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation. It is understood that these cases, saved by the 'seeds of the Word' are known only to God.

Non Catholic religions are not paths to salvation and their members need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II. This is the important point omitted by the Catholic Bishops Conference.Daphne McLeod is affirming the dogma which Pope Pius XII called ‘the infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

This was the interpretation of the Church Fathers, it was defined at three Church Councils, repeated in the ordinary magisterium of the popes, taught by numerous saints and included in Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7).

The website says ‘As Catholics we believe that Christ lived,died and rose from the dead for all people and that God’s plan of love embraces the whole of creation.’ This is a contradiction of Dominus Iesus 20 which says Jesus died for all, however to receive this salvation all need to enter the Church.

The website says ‘We can joyfully accept ,as was recognized by the Fathers of the Church, that other religions contain elements of truth that we find in Christ.’ Dominus Iesus mentions that other religions also contain ‘errors, deficiences and superstition’, which we cannot attribute to Christ or the Holy Sprit.

Also the Church Fathers no where said that non Catholic religions are the ordinary means of salvation. The ordinary means of salvation is the Catholic Church (Redemptoris Missio 55). Vatican Council II indicates that the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (LG 14, AG 7).It is not 'the seeds of the Word'.

The English bishops are denying an ex cathedra dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 which Venerable Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). They are also rejecting Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7) and assuming that the hypothetical exceptions that we accept in principle, are defacto known to us and so contradict a traditional teaching of the Church. They are also implying that the ‘seeds of the Word’ found in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation.

The English bishops are changing the Catholic Church’s teaching on Faith just as they have done so on morals.(2).

Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on morals, Veritatis Splendor, says that an intrinsically evil act is always a mortal sin, even if one suggests that the person is not aware of the sin. Veritatis Splendor is clear that there is no 'invincible doubt'. Also rationally we know that we cannot judge who has an 'invincible doubt'.Veritatis Splendor says that the exterior action indicates the interior intention.It calls mortal sin a mortal sin. 

The bishops are now suggesting that we know who is saved with  the ‘seeds of the Word’. A possible exception known only to God is made the general rule.-Lionel Andrades

1.

As Catholics we believe that Christ lived, died and rose from the dead for all people and thatGod’s plan of love embraces the whole of creation. We can joyfully accept ,as was recognized by the Fathers of the Church,that other religions contain elements of truth that we find in Christ.The Fathers of the Church called these elements “seeds of the Word”.The Vatican Council II attributed the positive values present in other religious traditons to the actibe presence of God through through his Word,pointing also to the universal action of the Spirit “at work in the world before Christ was glorified”.(Ad Gentes n.4).-Catholics and Other Faiths report on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.

2.

14. Homosexuals have the same need for the Sacraments as the heterosexual. They also have the same right to receive the Sacraments. In determining whether or not to administer Absolution or give Communion to a homosexual, a pastor must be guided by the general principles of fundamental theology, that only a certain moral obligation may be imposed. An invincible doubt, whether of law or fact, permits one to follow a true and solidly ‘probable opinion’ in favour of a more liberal interpretation. - According to the Archdiocese of Westminister Soho Mass Pastoral Council announcement on the Internet

SOHO MASS - CONTRADICTS CATECHISM AND VERITATIS SPLENDOR

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2009/10/soho-mass-two-different-moral-and.html#links

NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/non-catholics-can-be-saved-in.html