Tuesday, July 10, 2012

Fr.Leonard Feeney, Wikipedia and Vatican Council II

Wikipedia, the on line encylopedia states:

Father Leonard Feeney (Lynn, Massachusetts February 18, 1897 – Ayer, Massachusetts January 30, 1978 ) was a U.S. Jesuit priest who defended the strict interpretation of the Roman Catholic doctrine, extra Ecclesiam nulla salus ("outside the Church there is no salvation"), arguing that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved.He fought against what he perceived to be the liberalization of Catholic doctrine. –Wikipedia, Fr.Leonard Feeney.
'arguing that baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing and that therefore no non-Catholics will be saved.’
No non Catholic will be saved ? All non Catholics are oriented to Hell ?

Yes - according to Vatican Council II. All (non Catholics included ) need Catholic Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (AG 7). ‘Therefore no non Catholic will be saved without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.(Vatican Council II).

‘baptism of blood and baptism of desire are unavailing’?

Yes - since we personally do not know any case on earth who will be saved with the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood (martyrdom).

When I meet a non Catholic I know he needs Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. I cannot meet a non Catholic who I know will be saved with the baptism of blood or desire.

So no non Catholic will be saved according to Vatican Council II (AG 7) and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus unless he or she converts into the Catholic Church. There are no known  exceptions of the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood. Non Catholics have Original Sin and commit mortal sins.

In faith, in principle, as a theory we accept the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance etc but in reality we do not know any case on earth.There may not be a single case saved in 2012 . We do not know.

So Fr.Leonard Feeney was correct.

Since there are no exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma, Vatican Council II must be interpreted according to Fr.Leonard Feeney and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Then Vatican Council II will not be a rupture but a continuity with Tradition.-Lionel Andrades

POPE BENEDICT AND BISHOP GERHARD MULLER WORKED CLOSELY AT THE INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

Factual, objective errors of the International Theological Commission are linked to a liberal, non traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II.

we became personally close in the years in which you were a member of the International Theological Commission, of which I (as prefect of the CDF) was president. We were all deeply impressed by your comprehensive knowledge of the whole history of dogma and theology, which your interventions always showed, and which was the foundation of your ever-reliable judgment. In everything we sensed that your theology was not just academic learning, but that it was and is – as the essence of theology demands – a thinking-with the word of the Faith, thinking-with the “we” of the Church as the communal subject of the Faith. You took care to make the work of the International Theological Commission better known in Germany, and in all those years you continually published important contributions on the pressing theological questions of the day.- For the record: the Pope's praise for Bishop Gerhard Müller in 2007 -Rorate Caeli (from the Sancrucensis blog) July10,2012

Now see the errors of the International Theological Commission (ITC).

International Theological Commission (ITC)

10. Exclusivist ecclesiocentrism—the fruit of a specific theological system or of a mistaken understanding of the phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus—is no longer defended by Catholic theologians after the clear statements of Pius XII and Vatican Council II on the possibility of salvation for those who do not belong visibly to the Church (cf, e.g., LG 16; GS 22).-International Theological Commission, Christianity and the World Religions 1997. (1)

Lionel:
‘Pope Pius XII and Vatican Council II has clearly said that those who do not belong visibly to the Church can be saved.’

To be an exception to the exclusive interpretation of the dogma those who do not belong visibly to the Church would have to be known.

Where does Vatican Council II or Pope Pius state that we know these exceptions personally or that they are explicit exceptions to the dogma?. Pope Benedict and Bishop Gerhard Muller just assumed these cases are known to us and so are exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma.

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,Vatican and Archbishop Augustine Di Noia, Vice President of Ecclesia Dei were also associated with the ITC.

International Theological Commission (ITC)

58. In the face of new problems and situations and of an exclusive interpretation of the adage: “salus extra ecclesiam non est”,[88] the magisterium, in recent times, has articulated a more nuanced understanding as to the manner in which a saving relationship with the Church can be realized. The Allocution of Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam (1854) clearly states the issues involved: “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord”-The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized(2007. International Theological Commission)
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_cti_index-doc-pubbl_en.html

Lionel:
The Allocution of Pope PIus IX clearly does not state in the passage cited above that those saved in invincible ignorance are explicitly known and so are exceptions to the dogma which says whoever does not enter into the Church will perish. These exceptional cases are known only to God.The Church Councils and popes knew this. This unfortunately was the error of the Archbishop of Boston Richard Cushing and the Jesuits there.

Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Gerhard Muller, ITC.
59. The Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston (1949) offers further specifications. “To gain eternal salvation, it is not always required that a person be incorporated in reality (reapse) as a member of the Church, but it is necessary that one belong to it at least in desire and longing (voto et desiderio). It is not always necessary that this desire be explicit as it is with catechumens. When one is invincibly ignorant, God also accepts an implicit desire, so called because it is contained in the good disposition of soul by which a person wants his or her will to be conformed to God’s will”.

Lionel:
Yes in principle a person can be saved with the baptism of desire. In reality, explicitly we do not know any case of a person saved in Heaven with the baptism of desire. So it is not an issue with respect to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Implicit desire is irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma.It is not even an issue.

International Theological Commission (ITC)
62. It is not possible to develop a theology of the religions without taking into account the universal salvific mission of the Church, attested to by Holy Scripture and by the tradition of faith of the Church. A theological evaluation of the religions was impeded over a long time because of the principle extra ecclesiam nulla salus, understood in an exclusivist sense. With the doctrine about the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation or the sacrament of the kingdom of God, theology seeks to respond to the new way of posing the problem. This teaching, which was also welcomed by Vatican Council II, is linked to the sacramental vision of the Church in the New Testament.-Christianity and the World Religions (2007. ITC)

Lionel:
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus was not just a principle it was a dogma, thrice defined. Historically it was always understood that there is exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church. There are numerous popes and saints who testify to this.How can you have a theology of religions and overlook Ad Gentes 7 which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation ?

Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Gerhard Muller, ITC.
63. The primary question today is not whether men can attain salvation even if they do not belong to the visible Catholic Church; this possibility is considered theologically certain.

Lionel:
Yes and it does not conflict with the literal interpretation of the dogma since we do not know who are these exceptional cases, they are known only to God.

Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Gerhard Muller, ITC
65. One speaks of the necessity of the Church for salvation in two senses: the necessity of belonging to the Church for those who believe in Jesus and the necessity for salvation of the ministry of the Church which, on mission from God, must be at the service of the coming of the kingdom of God.- Christianity and the World Religions (2007. ITC)

Lionel:
There is the necessity of belonging to the Church for all with no exception on earth. Since we do not know who is in invincible ignorance or those who do not. Only God can judge.

It is not enough to just have faith in Jesus Christ one also has to live the faith and moral teachings of the Catholic Church. A Catholic knows that if he dies in mortal sin he is oriented to Hell even if he had faith in Jesus Christ.

According to the dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence, Protestants and Orthodox Christians need to convert to avoid the fires of Hell.

Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Gerhard Muller, ITC
66. In his encyclical Mystici Corporis, Pius XII addresses the question, How are those who attain salvation outside visible communion with the Church related to her? He says that they are oriented to the mystical body of Christ by a yearning and desire of which they are not aware (DS 3821).-Christianity and the World Religions 2007

Lionel:
Yes they can be saved and we do not know who are these cases specifically. So one cannot imply that those saved with the baptism of desire are exceptions to the dogma. They are not.

Pope Benedict XVI and Bishop Gerhard Muller, ITC
The opposition of the American Jesuit Leonard Feeney, who insisted on the exclusivist interpretation of the expression extra ecclesiam nulla solus, afforded the occasion for the letter of the Holy Office, dated 8 August ,1949, to the archbishop of Boston, which rejected Feeney s interpretation and clarified the teaching of Pius XII.

Lionel:
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 affirmed Fr.Leonard Feeney’s interpretation when it referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’. The infallible dogma indicates all non Catholics in Boston and the rest of the world need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell.(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441).

‘The dogma’ did not mention those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire since they are not defacto, explicit exceptions. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 does not state that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy but for disobedience.The ‘dogma’ the ‘infallibe’teaching supported Fr.Leonadr Feeney on doctrine.

If it was assumed that those saved with the baptism of desire etc are explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma then it was an objective, error. We do not know personally those saved in Heaven. It is only known to God.

-Lionel Andrades

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Nostra Aetate does say that the Church is the' new people of God'. Catholics are the Chosen People.They have the Promised Jewish Messiah, the Eternal Covenant and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS

Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Bishop Charles Morerod O.P Oath of Fidelity: to dissent
Profession of Faith allows for dissent on ecclesiology and baptism

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION USES PREMISE THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT : LIMBO

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS

VATICAN COUNCIL II REJECTS THE THEOLOGY OF RELIGIONS

Former Secretary of the International Theological Commission holds that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

SSPX WEBSITE: ' I believe in three baptisms for the forgiveness of sins’ ?

WILL BISHOP BERNARD FELLAY IN THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SAY: 'I BELIEVE IN ONE BAPTISM FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS?

Bishop Fellay, Fr.Schmidberger,FSSP,Joseph Fenton seem unaware the baptism of desire is not an explicit exception to the dogma

CARDINAL LEVADA WRITES PREFACE FOR ITC BOOK : IT SAYS THE HOLY OFFICE CORRECTED FR.LEONARD FEENEY FOR DENYING THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE, WHICH IT IS ASSUMED (WRONGLY) CONTRADICTS THE DOGMA
In what way does the baptism of desire contradict the literal interpretation of the dogma, CDF?

ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY RECTOR REJECTS CHURCH TEACHING ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS REPRESENTED THE VATICAN AT FAILED TALKS WITH THE SSPX

ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY PRIEST- PROFESSOR REJECTS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS: HERESY AND SACRILEGE

ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY IS CHURNING OUT THEOLOGY DEGREES FOR THOSE WHO SAY FR.LEONARD FEENEY WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR REJECTING THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE

WE DO NOT KNOW ANYONE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE OR INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE SO EVERYONE NEEDS TO ENTER THE CHURCH AS DON BOSCO TAUGHT- Salesian Rector and Parish priest in Rome

VATICAN COUNCIL II AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Fr. Davide Carbonaro

Its a mortal sin to deny the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It is a sacrilege to receive the Eucharist in this condition- Fr. Gabrielle, priest of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF- Fr.George Puthoor

LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE

FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P

BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF

ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY RECTOR REJECTS CHURCH TEACHING ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS REPRESENTED THE VATICAN AT FAILED TALKS WITH THE SSPX

ITC documents 'Christianity and the World Religions' and 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized ' need to be retracted or corrected: Richard Cushing flaw runs through

John Vennari says ‘the SSPX position is nothing more than the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church throughout the ages' but the SSPX also says that we know cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance which is non traditional ‘Conciliar Thinking’.

When Vennari talks about Vatican Council II it is the same ‘Conciliar Thinking’ according to Di Noia since he assumes there are known exceptions.This is the same Conciliar Thinking on Vatican Council II according to the correspondents of Rorate Caeli.

If John Vennari, the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) bishops and the communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney agree that LG 8 and LG 16 are always implicit, (never explicit for us) we have a traditional, rational interpretation of Vatican Council II. It is Vatican Council II without the ‘Concliar Thinking’.

If the SSPX admits that they are not known to us then the LG 16,LG 6  cannot be exceptions to outside the church no salvation.The present position of the SSPX is confusing.

The Church Fathers mentioned non Catholics being able to be saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire but did not say that these cases were explicitly known to us.

John Vennari says 'that the SSPX position is nothing more than the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church throughout the ages, that all non-Catholics, Jews included, must convert to the Catholic Church for salvation. There is no salvation outside the Church.'(1) True - however the SSPX also says that some people on earth in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are exceptions to there is no salvation outside the Church. In other words there are known on earth exceptions to the dogma !?.

'The SSPX position is what the Church has always taught: the Old Covenant is superseded and made obsolete by the New. Those who are still members of non-Catholic societies, such as Judaism or Protestantism, can only be saved by leaving their false positions and joining the one true Church that Christ established' , he writes.

'This should not be a difficult concept for a Catholic.'

The SSPX position is a difficult concept for a Catholic since it says ‘Those who are still members of non-Catholic societies, such as Judaism or Protestantism, can only be saved by leaving their false positions and joining the one true Church that Christ established’ -and yet the SSPX believes there are known exceptions of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre only accepted in principle that a non Catholic could be saved in invincible ignorance or implicit desire. He did not suggest like the SSPX webpages and websites that these  cases were known to us.

If the SSPX admits that those saved in invincible ignorance etc  are not known to us then  Lumen Gentium 16 and Lumen Gentium 8  cannot be exceptions to outside the church no salvation.

The present position of the SSPX is confusing.
-Lionel Andrades


1.
Archbishop Di Noia Admits: The Goal is to Convert SSPX to Conciliar Thinking- John Vennari

Archbishop Di Noia Admits:The Goal is to Convert SSPX to Conciliar Thinking- John Vennari

Archbishop Di Noia Admits: The Goal is to Convert SSPX to Conciliar Thinking- John Vennari

When John Vennari refers to Conciliar Thinking he really means accepting Vatican Council II with an explicit, known to us Lumen Gentium 8 ( 'elements of sanctification') and Lumen Gentium 16 (being saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience).

This is Archbishop Di Noia's understanding of Vatican Council II and this is ALSO the only understanding of Vatican Council II held by the Society of St.Pius X. The SSPX concept of Vatican Council II is Conciliar.

They do not interpret Vatican Council II with an implicit, known only to God LG 8 and LG 16.

So the problem is not only with the Conciliar Thinking of the Vatican but also that of the SSPX.

The SSPX needs to interpret Vatican Council II in line with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Fr.Leonard Feeney.Since there are no known exceptions on earth to the literal interpretation of the thrice defined dogma, including Cantate Domino, Council of Florence.
-Lionel Andrades

The Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church to accept Vatican Council II according to Fr.Leonard Feeney and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

The Letter of the Holy Office supports Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center on the literal interpretation of the dogma. If the Letter assumes that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma, it made an objective error.

When Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre said 'preach extra ecclesiam nulla salus' he meant the literal interpretation of the dogma.There cannot be two interpretations.

The SSPX should criticize the ' ecclesiology of communion' and the 'theology of religions' in the name of Vatican Council II.

The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) response to Fr.Leonard Feeney and his communities today should be that the Letter of the Holy Office supports Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine,in the initial paragraphs of the Letter.If at the end of the Letter, Fr.Leonard Feeney was criticized for doctrine then the Letter made an objective error, since we do not know anyone saved with the baptism of desire etc. If the Letter criticized him for disobedience it is true that Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center were disobedient to the Archbishop. The Archbishop was teaching heresy with his known- to-us-baptism of desire which was supposed to contradict the dogma.

The SSPX must realize that the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 of Pope Pius XII supported Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine and so Vatican Council II must be interpreted in accord with the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.

Ad Gentes 7 agrees with Fr.Leonard Feeney,it states all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

When Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre said 'preach extra ecclesiam nulla salus' he meant the literal interpretation of the dogma.There cannot be two interpretations.If the SSPX assumes that LG 16 and LG 8 are known to us then we have a new interpretaion of  Vatican Council II and the dogma on salvation.

If one assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance are known to us then we get another interpretation of Vatican Council II,it is the Muller-Di Noia liberal interpretation.-Lionel Andrades