Monday, October 31, 2011

SSPX DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THE CONDEMNATION OF FR.LEONARD FEENEY FOR HERESY

Implicit or ‘explicitly known’ baptism of desire is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since we do not know a single such case.

The SSPX and Catholic Traditionalists are opposed to the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX with their exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Instead of correcting their  error on the internet they stil maintain a webspage which claims that the Holy Office condemned Fr. Leonard Feeney’s teaching.

The Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr.Leonard Feeney by referring to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’.The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence indicates all non Catholics in Boston and the rest of the world are oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church. Yet the SSPX claims that the Letter of the Holy Office condemned Fr.Leonard Feeney.(1).

True in principle. De facto we do not know any such case. So it does not contradict the text of the dogma. It does not contradict Fr.Leonard Feeney. He said that every one on earth with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Church. We don’t know of any exception.True in principle. De facto we do not know any such case. So it does not contradict the text of the dogma. It does not contradict Fr.Leonard Feeney. He said that every one on earth with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Church. We don’t know of any exception.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wants his will to be conformed to the Will of God.
A person can be saved in invincible ignorance and with the baptism of desire but since it is implicit it is unknown to us. So why should Fr. Leonard Feeney or the SSPX suggest that this is an exception to the dogmatic teaching ?. Every one with no exception needs to be an explicit, formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation and we know there are no exceptions of the baptism of desire or being saved invincible ignorance? There are no defacto known exceptions. Hypotherically we accept the possibility. We do not know of any such case in the present times.
That one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
The Letter is not saying that being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire is explicitly known and so it contradicts Fr.Leonard Feeney. The Letter is no where saying he is condemned.

With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally as well in every religion. (Letter to the Archbishop of Boston, August 8, 1949).
Fr. Leonard Feeney rejected an explicitly known baptism of desire and believed this was not an exception to the dogma. Neither do we know any case of a person saved with an implicit baptism of desire. So we reject both implicit and ‘explicitly known’ baptism of desire as being exceptions to the dogma.

It is important to make the distinction : Hypothetically we accept that it is possible and known to God only, that a person can be saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. De facto there are no such known cases.

So Fr.Leonard Feeney was not denying the possibility of someone being saved with the baptism of desire but he is denying that the baptism of desire in any form can be an exception to the dogma as it was being alleged at that time. There is no such baptism of desire.

To imply that there is an explicitly known baptism of desire which can contradict the dogma is the heresy of the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Jesuits of  Boston College and today of the SSPX and some traditionalists.-Lionel Andrades

________________________________________________________

1.

Conclusion

Let us finally quote the letter of the Holy Office condemning Fr. Feeney’s teaching:

That one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance, God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wants his will to be conformed to the Will of God. These things are clearly taught in the dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943 (Mystici Corporis)... he mentions those who are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer "by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation; but on the other hand, he states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church!" With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally as well in every religion. (Letter to the Archbishop of Boston, August 8, 1949). Fr.Feeney and Catholic Doctrine
Photo of the Sisters of St.Benedict Sisters one of Fr.Leonard Feeney's communities who have been granted canonical status by the Catholic Church in the diocese of Worcester,USA.
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

Sunday, October 30, 2011

SSPX ,CATHOLIC TRADITIONALISTS ARE ANATHEMA ACCORDING TO THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS

SSPX priests and lay supporters are publicly promoting indifferentism on the internet, Heresy and sacrilege require prayers of reparation

The Syllabus of Pope Pius IX (Dec 8.1854) mentions an explicit condemnation of four propositions which express indifferentism.Proposition 16 condemns the negation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Wikipedia in italian (extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

The Society of St.Pius X priests believe that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicitly known to us and so they are an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The dogma says everyone needs to convert into the Catholic Church. The SSPX suggest some people on earth do not have to do so.

They are also critical of Fr.Leonard Feeney who like the defined dogma,popes and saints said everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church.(1) They are critical  of Fr.Leonard Feeney, who like the Church Fathers, popes and saints, refused to consider as exceptions to the dogma those who could be saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.

Invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogmatic teaching it was known for centuries. For the SSPX priests the baptism of desire and blood are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Cantate Domino,Council of Florence 1441 says all non Catholics need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. They can only convert with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. They cannot convert with the baptism of desire and blood which is a grace and depends on so many external factors. If the Church annouces someone is a martyr then we accept it. Otherwise we cannot judge.So to consider the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance etc as an exception to the dogma is heresy. It brings the anathama mentioned in the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX.

SSPX priests and lay supporters say they do not affirm the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of extra ecclesiam nulla salus since they believe a non Catholic can be saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.This is heresy and the offering of Mass and the receiving of the Eucharist becomes a sacrilege.

If invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are always implicit then it does not oppose extra ecclesiam nulla salus.When it is explicilty known as the SSPX implies then it contradicts the dogma.It means, for example, at the Assisi interfaith meeting this month non Catholics are saved with the baptism of desire or in invincile ignorance.If there can be one such explicit case then it is assumed that there could be many.This is indifferentism.

The SSPX mentions three forms of baptism on a webpage on the internet. So what? The baptism of desire and blood are known only to God (unless the Church declares someone a martyr) we cannot judge. In general we do not know such cases.So they do not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Neither do they contradict Fr.Leonard Feeney when he says that every one needs to be a visible member of the Church to avoid Hell and there are no exceptions of the baptism of desire etc.

An important distinction for the SSPX to note is: hypothetically there can be exceptions (baptism of desire etc) and we accept this in principle.De facto there can be no known exceptions to the dogmatic teaching, every one with no exception needs the baptism of water given to adults with Catholic Faith.

Lumen Gentium 16,Vatican Council II, on invincible ignorance does not contradict the dogma.There is nothing in Vatican Council II (good conscience, saved with the Word of God etc) which contradicts the dogma.

When Fr. Tissa Balasuriya OMI rejected an ex cathedra dogma he was excommunicated by Pope John Paul II.The SSPX and traditionalists are rejecting a dogma defined three times and which Venerable Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible’teaching (Letter of the Holy Office 1949). Are they not automatically excommunicated?-Lionel Andrades
____________________________________________

1.
ERROR I:
Misrepresentation of the Dogma, "Outside the Church There Is No Salvation"
The first error of those who take their doctrine from Rev. Fr. Leonard Feeney, commonly known as "Feeneyites," is that they misrepresent the dogma, "Outside the [Catholic] Church there is no salvation." The Feeneyites misrepresent this as, "Without baptism of water there is no salvation. -Fr. Francois Laisney SSPX Errors of the Feeneyites
http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/three_errors_of_feeneyites.htm
WIKIPEDIA IN ITALIAN SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS MEANS OUTSIDE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES THERE IS NO SALVATION

DAPHNE MCLEOD’S COMMENT SHOULD BE A WAKE UP CALL FOR SSPX, TRADITIONALISTS AND ENGLISH BISHOPS http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/daphne-mcleods-comment-should-be-wake.html
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

Saturday, October 29, 2011

WIKIPEDIA IN ITALIAN SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS MEANS OUTSIDE THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES THERE IS NO SALVATION

Wikipedia in Italian gives a false interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It says the celebrated 'phrase' in Italian attributed to St.Cyprian says it is necessary for salvation in eternal life to remain within the ‘Christian Church’.(Conosciuta anche come Nulla salus extra ecclesiam, la frase definisce la necessità del fedele che voglia guadagnare la salvezza nella vita eterna, di restare in seno alla Chiesa cristiana.)

It then quotes Magisterial documents saying for eternal life all must remain within the Catholic Church.It contradicts itself by mentioning Article 114 of the Catechism of the Council of Trent which says that those who want eternal life must stay within the Church,they must enter the Ark. (1)

It then says that the Syllabus of Pope Pius IX (Dec 8.1854) (2) mentions an explicit condemnation of four propositions which express indifferentism.Proposition 16 condemns the negation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

It quotes the Catechism of Pope Pius X of 1905 (3) Articles 169, 171 e 172.In particular  article 169 of the  Catechism of the Council of Trent .
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1992 repeats this teaching in artciles 816,819 and 846-848 (4).It says Vatican Council II repeats this Catholic teaching in Lumen Gentium 4 and Unitatis Redintegratio.(Chapter 3). (5)

Unlike the Wikipedia entry in English on extra ecclesiam nulla salus it does not mention Lumen Gentium 16 as an exception. It is false to mention Lumen Gentium 16 as an exception since LG 16 is not explicitly known to us.It  is not an exception to the dogma which indicates every one with no exception needs to be a formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation.

Also the Italian version does not mention Fr.Leonard Feeney as in the English version of Wikipedia. The English version suggests Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for saying that every one needs to be a visible member of the Church and that there were no exceptions.(See also Fr.Leonard Feeney).This was exactly what the dogma, the popes and the saints stated; that every one needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church for salvation..

The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 does not mention that he was excommunicated for heresy but for disobedience. The Letter supported Fr.Leonard  Feeney when it referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’. The infallible teaching tells us that all non Catholics in Boston and the rest of the world need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This was exactly what Fr.Leonard Feeney said. The Wikipedia entry in English has errors.

Wikipedia in English or Italian could  mention that the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 supported Fr.Leonard Feeney since the proof is there in the text of the Letter. Wikipedia rejects statements which cannot be supported by the original documents. In this case the Letter of the Holy Office mentions the words 'the dogma'. The text of the dogma is clear: all non Catholics in Boston or elsewhere need to be visible, formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
____________________________________________

1.
Those who want to obtain eternal life must belong to the Church  they must enter the Ark not like those who  perish in the flood.
  
« Quanti vogliono conseguire la salute eterna devono aderire alla Chiesa, non diversamente da coloro che, per non perire nel diluvio, entrarono nell'arca » (Catechismo del Concilio di Trento)

2.
Il Sillabo di papa Pio IX (8 dicembre 1854) contiene un'esplicita condanna di quattro proposizioni (XV-XVIII) che sono espressione dell'indifferentismo.


la proposizione XV condanna il soggettivismo razionalistico
la proposizione XVI condanna la negazione del dogma Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
la proposizione XVII condanna un'attenuazione dello stesso dogma
la proposizione XVIII condanna la negazione del dogma in relazione al protestantesimo


All'indifferentismo è associato il latitudinarismo, una dottrina indifferentista che attribuisce l'appartenenza religiosa soltanto in base alla provenienza geografica dell'individuo.


3.
Il Catechismo di Pio X del 1905 riafferma il dogma agli articoli 169, 171 e 172.

In particolare l'articolo 169 riprende un'immagine del Catechismo del Concilio di Trento e recita:
« No, fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana nessuno può salvarsi, come niuno poté salvarsi dal diluvio fuori dell'Arca di Noè, che era figura di questa Chiesa » (Catechismo di Pio X)


4.
Catechismo della Chiesa Cattolica [modifica]Il Catechismo della Chiesa Cattolica del 1992 tratta di quest'argomento negli articoli 816, 819 e 846-848.



5.
Concilio Vaticano II [modifica]Il Concilio Vaticano II ribadisce la posizione cattolica nella costituzione dogmatica Lumen Gentium (capitolo 4) e nel decreto Unitatis redintegratio (capitolo 3).
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

DAPHNE MCLEOD’S COMMENT SHOULD BE A WAKE UP CALL FOR SSPX, TRADITIONALISTS AND ENGLISH BISHOPS

Without denying the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance she is affirming the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

I have received two e-mails saying that the baptism of desire is a teaching of the Catholic Church and it cannot be denied. I agree. I affirm the baptism of desire which is always implicit. I reject an explicitly-known baptism of desire.

The Church Fathers, popes and saints accepted an implicit baptism of desire. None of them claimed that it was explicit or that it contradicted the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Neither did they say that this was the ordinary means of salvation. Neither is Daphne McLeod making this error.

She is saying that being saved with the baptism of desire does not contradict the centuries-old interpretation of the dogma as it was taught to her.

At the Pontifical Beda College, Rome, the Catholic seminary under the Bishops of England and Wales, they teach that there can be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and this contradicts the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.

This is being taught by the present Rector Mons. Roderick Strange with the approval of the bishops of England and Wales. This is also being taught by Mons. Andrew Falley, the former Vice Rector of the Beda College. He now represents the Catholic Bishops Conference in England in ecumenism and dialogue with other religions.For them Lumen Gentium 16 (1) contradicts the dogma. Daphne McLeod denies this.

Even priests and bishops with the Society of St.Pius X(SSPX indicate those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are exceptions to the dogma. Administrators at traditionalist internet forums hold the same view. While many priests who offer the Novus Ordo Mass in Rome agree with Daphne McLeod. They say we do not know any such case of invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.(3) So it does not contradict the dogma. Simple reason. No theology.

The traditionalists and English bishops suggest that Pope Pius XII contradicted himself. Pope Pius XII referred to those saved with the baptism of desire (explicitly known!?) yet he also mentioned ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’. The dogma indicates everyone needs to convert into the Church for salvation and mentions no exceptions of the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance. Confusion in the Letter of the Holy Office?! Is the Letter saying some ‘explicitly known cases’ do not have to enter the church and also, every one needs to enter the Church with no exceptions? Vatican Council II could also be a great confusion for the traditionalists and the English bishops. Since they believe that LG 16 refers to explicitly known cases, while LG 14, AG 7 (2) says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

The bishops and traditionalist are violating the Principle of Non Contradiction unlike Daphne McLeod.

For her those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16) are implicit while all people need to enter the Church explicitly (LG 16, AG7).Pope Pius XII tells us in the Letter of the Holy Office that de jure (in principle) there can be non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire. De facto everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church (according to the dogma).

It’s all simple. There can be non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance and it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441) and Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7).

So Fr. Leonard Feeney was correct in saying everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church and there are no exceptions. Pope Pius XII supported him on doctrine, 'the dogma' in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.

It was the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits who were in heresy with their explicitly-known implicit baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. The Boston Heresy Case really refers to them but the secular, liberal media will not admit it.

I know that when I meet a non Catholic on the street I cannot judge if he will be saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire and I know that the dogma says he is oriented to Hell unless he converts into the Catholic Church.-Lionel Andrades
__________________________________________

1.

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.-Lumen Gemtium 16,Vatican Council II.
2.


Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.-Lumen Gentium 14,Vatican Council II
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II
3.
CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/catholic-priests-in-rome-agree-with.html#links
NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/non-catholics-can-be-saved-in.html

DAPHNE MCLEOD COMMENT A BOMBSHELL FOR ENGLISH BISHOPS?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/daphne-mcleod-comment-bombshell-for.html
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

Friday, October 28, 2011

BISHOPS CONFERENCE OF ENGLAND AND WALES SAYS LUMEN GENTIUM 16 REFERS TO EXPLICITLY KNOWN CASES OF NON CATHOLIC SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

According to Daphne McLeod non Catholics can be saved in invincible ignorance and it does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Being saved with the baptism of desire and in ivincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma.
 
The Bishops Conference of England and Wales has placed the book Muslims Ask, Christian answer in the section Resources, on its website. (Dialogue With Other Religions /Committee for Relations with other Other Religions)
 
This book by Christian Troll interprets Vatican Council II (LG 16) as referring to cases of invincible ignorance being explicit and known to us. This is a common error of the English Catholic bishops.
 
Christian Troll represented the Catholic Church at the last inter faith meeting in Rome with Muslims. The Jesuit who specializes in Islam and is a professor at the Gregorian University, Rome is unable to affirm the Catholic Faith.
 
Reason tells us that the baptism of desire or genuine invincible ignorance is subjective, unseeable, non testable, implicit and known only to God. So how can implicit faith be explicit like the baptism of water?
 
We cannot say that any specific person has implicit faith. So LG 16 only refers to a concept, acceptable in principle, a possibility, in certain circumstances and unknown to us since it is not explicit.
 
So how could LG 16 contradict the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which refers to explicit faith, being needed for all people with no exceptions, that we can know of (with no cases of implicit faith that we can know of)?
 
According to the website it means LG 16 contradicts Lumen Gentium 14 and Ad Gentes 7 which says all need to enter the Church through Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

This is not true. We know that LG 16 refers to those saved implicitly and unknown to us while Lumen Gentium 14 refers to the need of explicit Catholic Faith and the baptism of water being needed by all with no exceptions.
 
So it means that all Muslims with no exception need explicit faith, they need to convert to avoid Hell and if there is any one among them who has the baptism of desire or is in genuine invincible ignorance it would be known only to God.-Lionel Andrades

NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: , ,

Thursday, October 27, 2011

DAPHNE MCLEOD COMMENT A BOMBSHELL FOR ENGLISH BISHOPS?

The Church teaches after Vatican Council II that all the non Catholic participants at Assisi today are oriented to Hell and there are no exceptions.

Daphne McLeod is not playing the Lumen Gentium 16 game and the bishops should have noticed it. Her comments are on the internet and English bloggers could  be picking it up by now.

She has united the Catholic traditionalist movement and pointed to a major cause of dissent and confusion in the Catholic Church.

She has brought the explicitly-implicit baptism of desire non-sense out in the open and to the attention of Catholics. She has not repeated the meaningless mantra ‘except for those in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire’. She has not fallen for the LG 16 ruse of the liberals.

We cannot meet anyone on the street saved with the baptism of desire, in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, ‘who has not had the Gospel preached to him through no fault of his own’, saved  in partial as compared to full communion with the Church. It is only God who can judge who ‘knows’ about the Church and yet does not enter and who is in invincible ignorance. The dogma outside the Church there is no salvation and Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) tell us that everyone needs to convert into the Catholic Church; to enter with Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water. The exceptions do not make the rule. The exceptions are not the ordinary means of salvation. The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (Redemptoris Missio 55, Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).Most important, the exceptions are only hypothetical, they are not de facto exceptions to the dogma.

It’s true that all who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church and this teaching does not contradict the dogma i.e. it is necessary that everyone enter the Church with no exceptions.

False reasoning assumes we are God and can judge. We reason that billions are oriented to Hell because this is the teaching of the Church. It is only the Catholic Church that has the ‘fullness of the truth’ and is the only moral authority. It is this Church which has been guided by the Holy Spirit to proclaim consistent teachings since the time of Jesus and the Apostles until today. The ‘great religions’ are false paths to salvation.

Jesus called this Church “my church” and said the ‘gates of Hell shall not prevail against it’. Other religions have ‘deficiencies, errors and superstition’ (Dominus Iesus) and the gates of Hell are open for all their members. This includes, those who believe in Jesus and do not do His will by entering in the Catholic Church and remaining in it. -Lionel Andrades

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 26, 2011
NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

Wednesday, October 26, 2011

NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England

Vatican Council II does not oppose the centuries old interpretation of the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.

Daphne McLeod yesterday (Oct.25,2011) said that the possibility of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or with the baptism of desire does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

In an e-mail received yesterday (1) she also said that she had read the reports I sent her especially with reference to the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) and extra ecclesiam nulla salus. She agrees that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire do not contradict the dogma which tells us that every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation.
She said she accepts the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire (http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2009/10/catholic-church-teaches-muslim-in.html#links).
 However it is understood that these cases are known only to God.Non Catholic religions are not paths to salvation and their members need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II.

She is affirming the dogma which Pope Pius XII called ‘the infallible teaching’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).This was the interpretation of the Church Fathers, it was defined at three Church Councils, repeated in the ordinary magisterium of the popes, taught by numerous saints and included in Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7).

Daphne McLeod who has taught for forty years in Catholic Junior and primary schools, daily teaching Religious Education is telling us that all the non-Catholic participants at the Assisi interfaith meeting tomorrow are oriented to Hell and there are no exceptions. This is the official teaching of the Catholic Church according to Magisterial texts.

Daphne McLeod has been a member of the Catholic Evidence Guild, and friend of Frank Sheed and Maisie Ward, she spoke regularly at Speaker’s Corner in Hyde Park. The Chairman of Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, U.K says that non Catholic religions, including those of Protestants and Orthodox Christians are not paths to salvation (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441, Vatican Council II LG 14, AG 7 etc). All non Catholics participating at the Assisi inter faith meeting are lost forever at the time of death unless they convert into the Church. This is not just her personal opinion but it has always been taught by the Catholic Church.

It may be mentioned that finally someone has said it loud and clear. We love all people and seek peace. We also believe that all non Catholics with no exception will go to the fires of Hell. This is not just a personal view but the teaching of the Catholic Church in three defined dogmas and in Vatican Council II.-Lionel Andrades

____________________________________________

1.Yes, of course, Lionel. That is what I was always taught about "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" way back when I was at school in the thirties and forties. That is also why we have always had missionaries who gave their lives to teach the Faith.-Daphne McLeod
ASSISI INTERFAITH MEETING OCT.27: OLD PROBLEM AMONG TRADITIONALISTS SURFACE

SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS DE FACTO KNOWN TO US : DISCERNING LIBERALS MUST BE LAUGHING UP THEIR SLEEVE

SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THIS IS HERESY

SSPX IN HERESY CALLS ATTENTION TO HERESY AT ASSISI

SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

ARCHBISHOP MARCEL LEFEBVRE CALLED "TO PREACH" THE RIGORIST INTERPRETATION OF "EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS"

SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

NORMS FOR THE TRIDENTINE RITE MASS VIOLATED ?

Michael Voris Hits the Jackpot…that is, “the dogma”- Brother André Marie MICM :RealCatholicTV affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE

FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P

BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF

ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY IS CHURNING OUT THEOLOGY DEGREES FOR THOSE WHO SAY FR.LEONARD FEENEY WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR REJECTING THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

HUTTON AND MEL GIBSON NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

Vatican needs to begin dialogue with traditionalists and sedevacantists

Hutton and Mel Gibson are quoted often on the internet saying only Catholics go to Heaven and outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Like Venerable Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 they endorse ‘the dogma’, ‘the infallible teaching’. There views are also the official teaching of the Catholic Church according to Magisterial texts (CCC 845, Dominus Iesus 20 etc).Vatican Council II (LG14, AG 7) has the same message.

Now that the Traditionalist Latin Mass has been regularised in the Catholic Church there could be dialogue with Hutton Gibson and his traditional Catholic Church. According to their quotes on the internet on extra ecclesiam nulla salus they do not claim that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are exceptions to the dogma.

On other Catholic issues, besides the dogma, they have similar views as the Society of St.Pius X who, it has been reported, have been offered an Ordinate by the Vatican.

Unlike the SSPX and the liberals the Church Fathers do not say that those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire are explicilty known to us or that these are exceptions to the  dogma. The Church Fathers refer to them as a posibility, something known to God.

Neither does Vatican Council II (LG16) say that those saved in invincible ignorance are known to us personally, that they contradict the dogma or, being saved in invincible ignorance is the ordinary means of salvation.

Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7 tell us that the oridnary way of salvation is the Catholic Church. So the Gibsons are in agreement with Vatican Council II.

May be in dialogue it will be observed that they are rejecting the non traditional interpretation of Vatican Council II; the politically correct version.

Let a representative of the Vatican begin dialogue with the sedevacantists and let it be videotaped for all Catholics to see.It would be useful for us to know  who believes in what. For example in the closed door dialogue with the Society of St.Pius X one of the Vatican representatives was the present Rector of the Angelicum,the University of St.Thomas Aquinas University in Rome. The Rector is  Fr.Charles Morerod, O.P. a Swiss Dominican priest and professor of dogmatic theology.He rejects the traditional teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He considers Fr.Leonard Feeney excommunicated for heresy.He believes those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicitly known and so contradict the dogma. He was the moderator of a thesis presented by an Italian diocesan priest on this subject.The errors were approved and the priest was granted a Licentiate.

It is this interpretation of Vatican Council II that Hutton Gibson rejects and so also rejects the papacy which he believes his promoting these false non Catholic, new doctrines in the name of Vatican Council II.

The Vatican has greeted the Hindus on their feast of Deepvali (Oct 26) and mentioned the importance of the freedom of religious worship and expression. The Vatican could also give that same freedom to Hutton Gibson within the Catholic Church.
-Lionel Andrades
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: , , , ,

ASSISI INTERFAITH MEETING OCT.27: OLD PROBLEM AMONG TRADITIONALISTS SURFACE

Day after tomorrow is the Assisi inter faith meeting and an old problem has surfaced among Catholic traditionalists i.e. the explicitly known implicit baptism of desire.

The communities of Fr. Leonard Fenney, recognized by the Catholic Church, say there can be people saved with the baptism of desire which will be followed by their receiving the baptism of water. They would agree that these exceptional cases are known only to God. Since they are not known to us they do not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

So when Fr. Leonard Feeney rejected the baptism of desire he was saying that there is no baptism of desire that we can know of as a possibility or a reality. So why mention it?!

Those saved with the baptism of desire are not exceptions.There is no explicitly-known implicit baptism of desire.

So for the communities of Fr. Leonard Feeney, the St. Benedict Centers, all the non Catholic participants at Assisi need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. There are no exceptions. Since we do not know anyone among the participants who has the grace of the baptism of desire or is in invincible ignorance. We know that this is not the ordinary means of salvation. The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. We know that no Magisterial text claim that these cases ( baptism of desire etc) are explicitly known to us. Instead  the Catholic Church officially says that all the non Catholics gathering there are oriented to Hell. (Vatican Council II LG.14,Ag 7,Dominus Iesus 20, Catechism of the Catholic Church 845,846,Cantate Domino, Council of Florence etc).

The problem now is with the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), the Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) and their lay supporters. They consider those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as exceptions to the dogma.Others say only those who 'know' about  Jesus and the Church are oriented to Hell.Yet only Jesus can judge who knows and who is in invincible ignorance. Since we cannot judge why mention it. The dogma says every one.
 The liberals praise the SSPX and criticize Fr.Leonard Feeney.Catholics in general are confused on this issue and it lends itself to indifferentism and syncretism.

Neither the pope, Cardinal William Levada or Bishops Fellay and Williamson want to comment on this issue.

Are all the non Catholic participants at Assisi oriented to the fires of Hell if they do not convert into the Church, or are there exceptions among them with the baptism of desire etc?-Lionel Andrades



SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS DE FACTO KNOWN TO US : DISCERNING LIBERALS MUST BE LAUGHING UP THEIR SLEEVE

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in_24.html


SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THIS IS HERESY
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in.html
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

Monday, October 24, 2011

SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS DE FACTO KNOWN TO US : DISCERNING LIBERALS MUST BE LAUGHING UP THEIR SLEEVE

The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) teaches that the Catholic Church is the ordinary means of salvation and there is the possibility of a non Catholic being saved in invincible  ignorance or the baptism of desire.So far so good. We can agree with them here.

Now comes the problem.

The SSPX cannot say that all the non Catholic participants at Assisi on Oct.27 are oriented to Hell. since they consider those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as:

1. Explicitly known to us.

2. Also being  the ordinary means of salvation.

3.Supported by Magisterial texts claiming that they are explicitly known to us and so contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Vatican Council II and magisterial texts do not state anywhere that those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire are explicily known to us,are the ordinary means of salvation or that they contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is the assumption and repeated propaganda of the enemies of the Church .

The SSPX also like the liberals teach that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. Since Fr.Leonard Feeney taught that  everyone needs to be a visible, formal member of the Church and there are no exceptions, including the baptism of desire or invincible ignorance.

This would mean according to the SSPX that:

1.The popes and saints were in heresy for saying the same.

2. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus also like Fr.Leonard Feeney,does not mention those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. So there is a big question mark about this dogma.

The three Councils which defined the dogma and the many popes who explained it in the ordinary magisterium knew that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogma since they are implicit cases known only to God. For centuries it was known that evey one with no exception needs to enter the Church and those saved in invincible ignorance and with the baptism of desire are not explicit.

SSPX is in heresy for denying the dogma by suggesting that those saved in invincinle ignorance are de facto exceptions to the dogma.

In Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II there is a reference to those saved in invincible ignorance. This is accepted only as a possibility. It is de jure, accepted only in principle.De jure or defacto we do not know any case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.

While, the dogma teaches that every non Catholic at Assisi 2001 needs to de facto enter the Church and there are no exceptions known to us.

Lumen Gentium 16 cannot refer to de facto, known-to-us exceptions since humanly we cannot know such cases. Secondly, it would contradict Lumen Gentium 14 and Ad Gentes 7 which says ‘all’ need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, for salvation. It would be contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction.

It would also mean Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 of Pope Pius XII contradict itself.The Letter for instance, cites  'the dogma', 'the infallible teaching'. The dogma  indicates every one with no exceptions needs to enter the Church for salvation, while the Letter also mentions those who can be saved ‘in certain circumstances’ with the baptism of desire.It is not a contradiction when those saved with the baptism of desire are considered implicit and accepted only in principle, while, all needing to enter the Church is considered defacto, real and tangible like the baptism of water.

That those in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicitly known to us and so contradicts the dogma and Fr.Leonard Feeney is the heresy of the Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits at Boston College.The Boston Heresy Case actually refers to them.-Lionel Andrades

SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THIS IS HERESY

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/sspx-considers-those-saved-in.html
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

SSPX CONSIDERS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE AND WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE AS EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THIS IS HERESY

Vatican Council II and other Magisterial texts only refer to those saved in invincible ignorance etc and do state that these cases are explicit or that they contradict the dogma.

The SSPX has criticized this week’s interfaith meeting at Assisi to be held on Oct 27 but is unable to affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus .It is unable to say that all the non Catholic participants are oriented to Hell.They have also picked up the liberal lie that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy for saying exactly the same thing as the dogma, the popes, the Church Councils, the Church Fathers, the saints and Vatican Council II.
To deny an ex cathedra dogma is heresy.Here it is also a denial of the Nicene Creed.- Lionel Andrades

SSPX IN HERESY CALLS ATTENTION TO HERESY AT ASSISI

SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
Posted by at No comments:
Labels: ,

ROME HAS BECOME MISSION TERRITORY FOR DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES WHILE CONFUSION EXISTS AMONG CATHOLICS REGARDING THE LEONARD FEENEY CASE

The Jehowahs Witnesses seem ahead of them all. Yesterday Sunday is the weekly mission day for different communities in Rome, Christian and non Christian. They claim they are cultural organisations. They promote their religion or sect.

Mostly Catholics are targeted because they are the majority population here. Also indifferentism and confusion is widespread among Catholics since they are told by religious leaders , the Vatican and the secular media that Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy.

Recently the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, Vatican and the Congregation of the Clergy, Vatican (1) spread the lie via the internet.

So targeted-Catholics in Rome no more believe in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and assume that the Church can change or discard ex cathedra dogmas when it chooses to.

The Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, Vatican claims Pope Pius XII condemned in 1949 ‘an exclusive interpretation’ of the dogma “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”. It suggests that every one no more needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church for salvation. In other words the dogma, the popes and the saints were all in heresy for saying the same thing as Fr.Leonard Feeney.

The Congregation for the Clergy website has the same message and suggests that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are known to us and so they are exceptions to the dogma.

This is also being taught in the subjects Ecumenism and Ecclesiology at the Angelicum, the University of the St.Thomas Aquinas. This is also being taught at  the Cardinal Bea Center for Judaic Studies at the Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome by leftist Rabbis and prominent lay Communists in Italy.

Now most of the Catechists with the Jehowahs Witnesses are ex Catholics.

1. A reading of the text of the 1949 Letter of the Holy Office issued during the pontificate of Venerable Pope Pius XII shows that no where is it said that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy.

2. Also if he was  excommunicated for heresy then it would mean that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Holy Office) claims numerous popes, saints, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus thrice defined, and Vatican Council II (LG 14,AG 7) also heretical.

The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus indicates every non Catholic needs to convert into the Church for salvation. It does not refer to invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as an exception. Fr. Leonard Feeney preached this teaching. This was the centuries-old interpretation of the dogma. The dogma does not mention invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire as exceptions since it was always known that they are implicit and known only to God.

The Pontifical Council for Christian Unity suggests Pope Pius XII contradicted himself in the Letter of the Holy Office. Since Pope Pius XII referred to ‘the dogma’, ‘the infallible teaching’. The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence tells us that all non Catholics in Boston and the rest of the world are oriented to the fires of Hell unless they enter the Catholic Church and remain a member. The dogma mentions Orthodox Christians and Protestants. So Pope Pius XII here supports Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine, on the dogma and does not condemn him for heresy as the Vatican offices suggest.
-Lionel Andrades
1.
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY INDICATES POPES, SAINTS IN HERESY

Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity claims Pope Pius XII condemned the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus :suggests those in invincible ignorance are explicitly known to us and so contradicts the dogma

Vatican website for clergy promotes 'theology of religions', Kung and Knitter : claims Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for the same interpretation of the dogma as the popes and saints
SSPX IN HERESY CALLS ATTENTION TO HERESY AT ASSISI

SSPX CLARIFY FOR US WHAT IS YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION ON THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

NORMS FOR THE TRIDENTINE RITE MASS VIOLATED ?

Michael Voris Hits the Jackpot…that is, “the dogma”- Brother André Marie MICM :RealCatholicTV affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE

FR.TULLIO ROTONDO AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE ON EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS IS DE FIDE AND NOT CONTRADICTED BY VATICAN COUNCIL II- Fr. Nevus Marcello O.P

BRAZILIAN PRIEST SAYS VATICAN COUNCIL II DOES NOT CONTRADICT DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN ROME AGREE WITH FR.LEONARD FEENEY: THERE IS NO BAPTISM OF DESIRE THAT WE CAN KNOW OF

ANGELICUM UNIVERSITY IS CHURNING OUT THEOLOGY DEGREES FOR THOSE WHO SAY FR.LEONARD FEENEY WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR REJECTING THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE
Posted by at No comments:
Labels:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)