Wednesday, August 1, 2012

FR.JOE JENKINS STILL WILL NOT SAY THAT HE CANNOT SEE THE DEAD AND THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS


Here is the text of Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II and the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.


Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.-Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II.

• There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)


• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)


• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) - Catholicism.org

No magisterial text claims there are known exceptions or that there are exceptions to the dogma or AG 7.


When magisterial texts refer to in principle (implicit) exceptions to the dogma one has to assume that they are defacto (explicit, known) exceptions to the dogma. The text does not say it. This is the error of Fr.Joe Jenkins.


They have to be only in principle (dejure, implicit) exceptions since we cannot know any de facto (explicit) case on earth.


Since those who are saved in invincible ignorance etc are known only to God we do not know if there is any such case in 2012 or ever. We cannot know if these ‘exceptions’ are saved with the baptism of water or without the Sacraments. However this does not contradict the dogma, either way.


The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 affirms the dogma and the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney in the earlier paragraphs. If in the latter paragraphs it assumes implicit desire is an explicit exception to the dogma then it made an objective mistake.


Implicit desire is irrelevant to the dogma. We do not know any particular case.


If Lumen Gentium 14 assumes that we know those saved in invincible ignorance and so only those who ‘know’ about Jesus and the Church and who do not convert are oriented to Hell, then this would be an objective mistake. However I interpret it as only God can decide who is in invincible ignorance and who ‘knows’ so there is no controversy here.-Lionel

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Dim Prospects for the Society of St. Pius X from the blog BLOGGER PRIEST (1)


Fr. Joe Jenkins cannot still say that the dead are not visible to us (he cannot see his deceased relatives in real life) and so there are no exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Nor are there any exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need’ ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation.

Here are my brief replies to his latest  response.

FATHER JOE:
You are one sick dude. You next criticize me for editing your proof-text version of Ad Gentes 7 (deleted here) while such had already been posted to the comments with the clarifications still in place in reference to the whole document. Now that you are deriding me on your blog and stealing from my site, I am hereby banning you.

Lionel:
Many of my comments were not posted so the ban was already there.

FATHER JOE:
I can no longer be party to parading your ignorance for all to see. It bothers me in conscience. I will let this and the earlier remarks suffice as a rebuttal.

I noticed that while I posted your comments up to this point, you have not permitted my short one at yours. You do not believe in playing fair, so there you have it.

Lionel:
Your comment was immediately posted.
Here is a copy:

Father Joe
I did not give permission to post my photo. You also did not correctly report about what we discussed. I quoted the Popes and the Council. You repeated slogans. You initiated this discussion at my blogs. I really have no desire to be associated with you or your site. I would ask you to remove the photo. Thank You.
July 29, 2012 12:43 AM

Catholic Mission said...
The photo is from the public domain.When people do not want their photos copied there is a system for blocking it from being copied.
I can also quote the popes and the Council and you will not post it in the discussion.
I initiated it and you ended it. There was no discussion.
You still have not denied that we cannot see non Catholics dead and who are saved.
You can see the dead saved who are execptions to the dogma and to Ad Gentes 7 ?
July 29, 2012 3:14 PM

The photo was immediately removed after I posted the comment.
FATHER JOE :
If I travel to Lazio or Rome it is safe to say that I will not be paying you a visit.


Mr. Lionel Andrades, neither you nor the SSPX can dictate to the Magisterium and the Vatican. You do not understand the documents you cite. Failing to appreciate this, you repeat your dissent again and again in the hope that this mantra of slogans will convince someone. You are arguing that we do not know the dead and saved in heaven; and yet, while we have no absolute certitude for most souls, there are canonized saints raised up by the Church as exemplars and intercessors for God’s pilgrim people on earth.

Lionel:
May be you still have misunderstood me. None of your deceased relatives or parishioners are visible to you.We cannot see the deceased.
Those whom the Church declares as saint we know that they are in Heaven. We accept this in faith. In general people cannot see them. Neither can you ?

FATHER JOE :
 You use a false reasoning or argument that if we do not know by name any souls who have escaped damnation because of invincible ignorance then by necessity there cannot be any.

Lionel:
I am just saying that in principle we can believe that there are people who can be in Heaven saved in invincible ignorance etc. Practically we do not know these cases. So invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma or AG 7 mentioned above.

FATHER JOE:
While the situation with Judas is dire, we have no absolute certainty of the names of any of the damned; however, this does not mean that there are no souls suffering perdition. My views are entirely in sync with the Church and Pope Benedict XVI. You have no authority to interpret (or should I say misinterpret) ecclesial documents in a way inconsistent with the living Church and Magisterium. You are the one skirting heresy but are too insignificant to register on the Church’s radar. If you were a priest, however, you would be censured and removed from ministry.

I noticed that you published a photo of me that is personal property on your site without permission. I would ask you to remove it. I do not want to be associated with you.

You cannot unjustly put words into the mouths of others or make straw man arguments with Archbishop Muller, Archbishop Di Noia or anyone else representative of the Holy See (alias Lionel the Confused Bishop).

Lionel:
I have mentioned in that blog post that if one would meet the Vatican Curia cardinals and bishops the conversation would go like this... I did not say I actually met them.

FATHER JOE :
 The Vatican II documents must be understood within the context of Catholic faith and tradition, not as a break with the essentials. But the error of Fr. Feeney’s friends is not representative of genuine tradition.

You create a false dichotomy between the dogma of no salvation outside the Church and the teachings about baptism by desire and the role of invincible ignorance. There are various conditions, like a life of charity and at least a natural discipleship. Further, these teachings are understood within the dogma about the necessity of the Church, not outside of it as an exception. The issue of the Feeney crisis is peripheral to the SSPX debate since they officially do not subscribe to any such exaggeration or heresy. The recent statement by the SSPX is inexact but is probably a shot against the sin of religious indifferentism.

Lionel:
The SSPX communique affirms the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, just like Fr.Leonard Feeney.

FATHER JOE:
I have already cited many documents to which you turn a blind eye or rationalize away. I am way past thinking that you are a an obsessed fanatic. When I do a Google search, your ramblings are like spam throughout the blogosphere.

Because of disagreements to his comments, Lionel Andrades has started a campaign to drag through the mud my name and that of a priest in Australia. He thinks that citing Vatican II and the Magisterium against the SSPX and the Feeneyites will somehow get me in trouble with our bishops and the Church.

Lionel:
You will not get into trouble with your bishops since they too assume that we can see the dead.

FATHER JOE:
I doubt the man is a theologian of any sort because he twists Church teaching and uses slogans to debate, neglecting or feigning straight facts and logical reasoning. He writes, “Priests in Washington and Sydney refuse to say that the dead saved in heaven are not visible to us.” Of course, nothing of the kind was said, only that such reasoning could not be used against the teachings about baptism by desire and the notion of invincible ignorance.

Lionel:
Your still not willing to say that we do not know any explicit exceptions to the dogma or AG 7 quoted above.

FATHER JOE
Calling orthodox teaching “theological novelty,” he says that I am “resisting the Catholic Church going back to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.” Of course, such is not the case. However he interprets the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church to mean that all Protestants, all Jews, all Moslems, all Hindus, all Buddhists and all non-believers are necessarily damned to the fires of hell, without exception.

Lionel:
The text quoted above says that they are all oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

FATHER JOE:
 I would counter that we are not presumptuous of our own salvation and we do not claim any veto authority over divine mercy.

Lionel:
True we personally would not know, however the Church through the de fide teachings quoted above tell us that they are oriented to Hell.

FATHER JOE:
Lionel Andrades does not care what the Holy Office, Vatican II or the popes taught. If we cannot see the blessed in heaven or the damned in hell then he insists that we cannot claim that any are saved because of invincible ignorance and/or baptism by desire.

Lionel:
We do not know any case on earth saved in invincible ignorance etc and neither can you name any.
Regarding the blessed in Heaven we accept that they are in Heaven in faith, because the Church says so.

FATHER  JOE:
 I wonder if he thinks hell might be empty since we cannot “see” any human beings there either.

Lionel:
The dogma indicates millions of non Catholics are oriented to Hell with fire.

FATHER JOE
 He never responds to the fact that the Church canonizes certain saints as in heaven. He wants to make sure that the three-fourths of the world that is not Catholic will go to hell. Who knows how many of the billion Catholics will make it, given the tragedy of mortal sin. Lionel Andrades makes himself into his own infallible teaching authority over and against the Magisterium and faithful priests.

Lionel:
The magisterium quoted above indicates millions are oriented to Hell. This is not just my view.

FATHER JOE:
The Catholic teaching is clear. Christ is the way and the truth and the life. None are saved apart from Christ (the head) or the Church (his mystical body).

Lionel:
True and this does not contradict the dogma and AG 7. Every one needs to enter the Church for salvation.

FATHER JOE:
 The teaching about a matter like baptism by desire and the issue of invincible ignorance works within this dogmatic equation. The Church intercedes and prays for the world. The Church embraces, even if there is a lack of juridical affiliation, all those who have been legitimately baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. There is only one covenant, not two. Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s covenant, first established through the Jewish people and later in a full realization with Christ’s saving sacrifice on the Cross.

Lionel:
True and this does not contradict the text quoted above.

FATHER JOE:
 We do not say that all non-Catholics are saved any more than we way that all Catholics are saved.

Lionel:
True.

FATHER JOE:
However, everything necessary for salvation subsists in the Catholic Church.

Lionel:
True and this does not contradict the dogmatic teaching above that everyone on earth needs to enter the Church for salvation.

FATHER JOE:
 If anyone should be saved and find himself in heaven, it is because of Christ’s power and his atonement. He is the bridge between earth and heaven. There is no secret tunnel or other passage across the ravine caused by sin.

 Our understanding of a just God is that he would not condemn people for what they fail to know in good faith. However, whatever truths and elements of real faith they possess will always be orientated toward incorporation in the Catholic Church. There is gravity toward a real and lasting union, not only in the Catholic Church but also in the kingdom of God. This kingdom is breaking into the world through the Church. Everyone in heaven is Catholic.

Lionel:
Everyone in heaven is Catholic! Amen.

(to be continued)

1.
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MONDAY, JULY 30, 2012
NUMBER OF PRIESTS NOT ANSWERING THE TWO QUESTIONS INCREASES

JULY 28, 2012
PRIESTS IN WASHINGTON AND SYDNEY REFUSE TO SAY THAT THE DEAD-SAVED IN HEAVEN ARE NOT VISIBLE TO US

JESUIT SUPERIOR GENERAL JOINS IN CONTROVERSIAL PROFESSION OF FAITH : FEAST OF ST.IGNATIUS OF LOYOLA IN ROME

We were all not in unity yesterday evening at Mass held at the Chiesa del Gesù, Rome on the feast day of St.Ignatius of Loyola. The Superior General of the Jesuits was the main celebrant and of course there was the Profession of Faith on which we disagreed.


I believe in the Catholic Church it was intoned by the Church soprano but the Jesuits don't believe in the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation. The Jesuits at this Church do not believe in the fires of Hell.They do not believe that there are millions of people oriented to Hell since they reject the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church. The Vice Rector of this Church where lies the body of St.Ignatius of Loyola, says the Church is not the ordinary means of salvation . Since according to him, the natives in Goa, the former Portuguese colony, would have been saved in invincible ignorance even if St.Francis Xavier did not go there.


"I believe in one holy Catholic Catholic Church" . We all answered in the  affirmative in Italian, even the Superior General.


It was the Jesuit Superior in Boston who removed a priest from their Congregation who was faithful to the teachings of the Church .He believed in the necessity of the Church for the salvation of all people with no known exceptions.


Yesterday evening during the long entrance processional of the Jesuits if I would ask a few of them "Does every one need to enter the Church for salvation like St.Ignatius of Loyola and St.Francis Xavier taught?" They would have said no the Church is always not needed. Some may agree with me.


"Why not? "


"Since a non Catholic can be saved in invincible ...."


"We do not know any such person", I would say.


"No of course not!" they would answer.


"Then how can there be exceptions to the dogma?"


There will be no answer.

Others say: No we don't know anyone saved in these exceptional cases but this is the teaching of the Church .This is what the Church teaches! The elderly Jesuit priest who chooses the Confessional near the sacristy, says the same. The Rector at the Jesuit seminary next door says the same.So does the Italian Vice Rector of the basilica.

They have been visited by the Jesuit who is the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,Vatican  and he says the same. He even gives reasons in the International Theological Commission's  Christianity and the World Religions (1997).What is the reason for this change from the teaching of St.Ignatius Loyola? He writes the change comes from the case of the ex Jesuit in Boston Fr.Leonard Feeney.

This is the Company of Jesus today,the great Jesuits, the pride of the Church once admired for their education and missionary spirit.

One day in Boston they agreed, along with the Archbishop, to change our understanding of Church, for them self and for all of us.

Yesterday their Profession of Faith and the Nicene Creed was  meaningless.Since the Jesuit understanding of Church assumes that there are known exceptions to the dogma, that there are people saved who are still visible on earth. These visible-dead are exceptions to the teaching of St.Ignatius of Loyola on exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.

If one uses the Jesuit premise of the visible dead naturally one has to come up with with different versions of the Creed and the Profession of Faith. There will be a new version of Vatican Council II. New doctrines will replace old dogmas.


So the Vice rector says the Church does not teach the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and it was relevant for the time of St. Ignatius of Loyola and St. Francis Xavier. Now they have the visible baptism of desire. The visible dead - who contradict the Jesuits missionaries of the past.

The Jesuits are all for justice in Colombia, Latin American,Africa past present and future. There justice is still awaited in Boston. An injustice was done to the Jesuit priest Leonard Feeney. We don't know anyone saved with the baptism of desire. The baptism of desire is irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma outside the church no salvation.

So there was a false Profession of Faith made yesterday by the Jesuits.It is not our Faith that there are visible cases of the dead on earth who are exceptions to a defined teaching.This is not the Deposit of the Faith. The Creed says ' I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins' and it does not imply that there are three known baptisms for the forgiveness of sin.I believe in the holy Catholic Church means I believe in the Church outside of which there is no salvation and no known possibilities of salvation. I believe in the Holy Spirit means it is the Holy Spirit which still guides the Church after Vatican Council II to teach the same concept of salvation as St.Ignatius of Loyola.-Lionel Andrades