Friday, November 13, 2009

CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS INDICATE POPE PIUS XII WAS FALLIBLE


Catholic apologists indicate that Pope Pius XII was fallible. This is the message of Mark Shea and Patrick Madrid. Also Fr. William Most on the Eternal Word Television Network (ETWN).


Apologist Mark Shea in a feature on InsideCatholic.com, Can Non Catholics be saved? (24.10.2009) states that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy.

He writes,' Rev. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for insisting that only people in visible communion with the Catholic Church could be saved.’

It may be mentioned that Fr. Leonard Feeney taught that defacto everyone needs to enter the Catholic Church through Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell –and there were no exceptions.

This was the dogma of the Council of Florence and the Bull Sanctum of Pope Boniface. This was the ex cathedra dogma of Pope Innocent III, Lateran Council IV (AD 1215), Unam Sanctam, Papal Bull of Pope Boniface VIII, 1302, Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. According to Ludwig Ott, this teaching has been solemnly defined by the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) and affirmed by the Union Council of Florence, by Popes Innocent III, Boniface VIII, Clement VI, Benedict XIV, Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius XII and many other popes

So Fr. Leonard Feeney affirmed the dogma. He said that de facto everyone needs to enter Catholic Church, with no exception to the baptism of water, to avoid Hell and go to Heaven. If they did not enter the Church he would say, and so did the dogma, they would be oriented to Hell.

So if Fr. Leonard Feeney was allegedly excommunicated for heresy then Pope Pius XII who approved of the excommunication as it is reported, would be in heresy and error. It would mean he was fallible on this faith-issue.

Yet Fr. William G.Most on the EWTN website states Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy.



Is this statement based on a new Revelation in the Catholic Church?

It could not be Vatican Council II since Ad Gentes 7, is in agreement with the dogma and Fr. Leonard Feeney.

If Fr. Leonard Feeney was in heresy then it must have been a new interpretation of the dogma.

But how can a dogma change?

When did this change happen?

I think the change happened when the Vatican and Boston’s secular newspapers were told that the dogma is now being re-interpreted. It is being changed they were told.

The Vatican was informed in the 1940’s that de jure (in principle) Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center do not believe that there could be exceptions to Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water, for going to Heaven.

The Vatican (Holy Office/CDF) was told that some professors at Boston College and the St. Benedict Center of Fr. Leonard Feeney, in principle do not teach that the baptism of desire and implicit salvation exists.

Then-the secular newspapers were told, or allowed to think, that Fr. Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center were teaching that de facto, everyone with no exception, needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell-so they were excommunicated.

The Archbishop of Boston did not make public the Letter of the Holy Office (1949) which affirmed ‘the dogma’ of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The Letter referred to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as the ‘infallible’ teaching. This point was in favor of St. Benedict Center which had been placed under interdict by the Archbishop of Boston.

Neither did the cardinal-archbishop of Boston issue a clarification when the newspapers reported that the Catholic Church has changed its teaching on the dogma. The newspapers instead said no more does every one have to convert to avoid Hell.

So this was when ‘the dogma changed’.

So when apologist Patrick Madrid was asked a call-in question on EWTN radio, if non-Catholic’s need to convert to go to Heaven-he gave the de jure answer from the Catechism and Vatican Council II.


It was correct (de jure) but false - de facto.

Non Catholics with the baptism of desire and implicit faith can be saved but de facto everyone needs to enter the Catholic Church with no exception, as the thrice defined dogma taught.

So the confusion still continues on a wide scale among Catholics.

If one says de facto any non Catholic can be saved in invincible ignorance or with a good conscience it is heresy. It is rejecting an ex-cathedra teaching like the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady. It would also mean rejecting the Church teaching on the infallibility of the pope which is a dogma defined in the First Vatican Council of 1870. It would also mean rejecting the teaching that a dogma is irrevocable and unchanging.

It would also be contradicting the saints like Maximillian Kolbe and Francis Xavier.

Imagine St. Francis Xavier before the natives in Old Goa, saying to them, “Many of you must convert to go to Heaven and avoid Hell. But not all of you. Those of you who have a good conscience or are in invincible ignorance can be saved. So stay where you are!”

Unthinkable?! But this is what good Catholics are saying on a large scale, including apologists.






3 comments:

Patrick Madrid said...

Negative.

You have misrepresented what I actually said on my radio show regarding this issue. If you want to critique something I've said, please be specific and either post the verbatim comments you want to critique, or post the audio clip from my show. (I do the latter all the time on my blog, btw.)

Unless you quote me accurately and in context and then critique my actual words, this kind of blog post indicting me for some vague idea of something you say that I said, with no evidence to support your claim, is unjust and an offense against the Eight Commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Catholic Mission said...

Praised be Jesus and Our Lady.

At the onset let me say that I am an admirer of Patrick Madrid and the other convert-apologists Scott Hahn,Robert Sungenis etc.I appreciate their apologetics and their contribution to the only Church Jesus founded outside of which there is no salvation.

In the EWTN Radio program it seemed that Patrick Madrid was focusing on the exceptions to the baptism of water and Catholic Faith i.e baptism of desire and invincible ignorance.
I was saying to myself at that time when is he going to say that all non Catholics de facto need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to go to heaven and avoid Hell.All - means no exceptions.
He left the issue vague seeming to affirm evangelisation and mission.
In an e-mail I received from him today asking me to post my comments here, he wrote he subscribes to the doctrine extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
But so does Mark Shea in his article in InsideCatholic.com 24.10.2009.He writes it is a solemn dogma and we have to accept it.Then the rest of the article is about how Vatican Council II neutralises this dogma. He even suggests that there can be exceptions de facto to all people converting to the Catholic Church.

I have sent a set of questions to Patrick Madrid which would clarify the issue.He is unable to answer the eight questions presently since he has other engagements.
The questions are:-
1)Does the Catholic Church teach that non Catholic religions, Hindus, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam etc are not paths to salvation (to go to Heaven and avoid Hell)?
2) Does the Catholic Church teach that Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water are needed for all people in general, barring the exceptions (invincible ignorance ), for salvation?
3) When you meet a Jew in Boston or a Muslim in London, can you tell him or her that he or she needs Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell?
4) Do Jews need to believe in the New Covenant to be saved?
5) Ad Gentes 7;Vatican Council II refers to the ordinary means of salvation for all people. Lumen Gentium 16,Vatican Council II refers to the extraordinary means of salvation?
6) Fr. Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for his belief and teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He was not excommunicated for heresy?
7)The Letter of the Holy Office (CDF) ,1949, to the Archbishop of Boston indicates that the Catholic Church still teaches the ‘dogma’, the ‘infallible’ teaching,extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So de facto everyone with no exceptions needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation. De jure (in principle and theology) there can be exceptions (invincible ignorance, good conscience etc) known only to God?
8) A lay Catholic who rejects a dogma publically is in mortal sin and is not to receive the Eucharist at Holy Mass without Confession and a public rectification of the scandal?
The Dogmas include extra ecclsiam nulla salus (extra ecclesiam nulla salus :Bull Unam Sanctam,Council of Florence ) and Our Lady’s Immaculate Conception.
In Christ
Lionel

CFT Catholics for truth said...

Patrick,
please don't be so excited. You do believe Pius XII was fallible as you think all popes are/were fallible. They are only infallible in faith and morals when they teach excathedra or echo the unanimous teaching of Sacred Tradition & the the Church Fathers in their universal ordinary magistrarium.

But Catholic Answers, Fr. Most,and Mr. Shea have continually spread the the false gossip that Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. Aren't you a regular guest on CA Live?
Have you ever corrected this notion?
or in your words have you practiced:
"unjust and an offense against the Eight Commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

And do you ever point out that Fr. Feeney died a Catholic in good standing according to canon lawyer Peter Vere ? (a person you know since you published an article of his in you magazine ENVOY) Without ever changing his stance? Have you told on CA Live that there are 3 religious orders approved by the Church since Vatican II who hold his "rigorist" view of EENS?

Or do you bear false witness or refuse to look for the truth?

Yours Truly in Jesus and Mary
Bill Strom :)
http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/12/i-was-notified-by-friend-that-response.html