The Catholic Answers Forum Newsletter (Hot Topics - Catholic Answers Forums - 100504) once again rejects the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
As in the past Catholic Answers suggests that
1.There are two interpretations of the dogma.
2.They reject the interpretation held for centuries that everyone with no exception needs to be visible members of the Catholic Church to be saved( to avoid Hell).
3. They interpret the baptism of desire(implicit faith) as referring to de facto salvation and so opposed to the dogma(the interpretation of Fr.Hans Kung,William Most etc).
4.They suggest Vatican Council II is oppossed to the ex cathedra dogma and so the popes were not infallible ex cathedra.
5.They do not accept implicit faith ( baptism of desire etc) as referring to a concept only, 'in certain circumstances'(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) and known only to God.
Apr 23, '10, 3:49 am
alitaptap
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Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Most probably you have read in the newspaper about a heroic effort to save someone’s life. Perhaps it was a story something like this:
Quote:
A little girl was playing ball with her brother. The ball rolled into the street. The little girl went after it. A bystander, a teenager, saw the girl running into the street. He also saw a car approaching her at some considerable speed. His moment of instant decision was that the only way the girl could be saved would be if he dashed into the street into the path of the car and pushed the girl out of the way of its onrushing speed. Without hesitation or fear for his own life, he proceeded to do so. The happy-sad story ended only too predictable: The girl is saved; the teenager is killed in his successful effort to rescue her.
) What if the teenager in the story were James who did not believe in God. What might his heroic action mean?
2) What if the hero were John , a practicing Catholic. Might his rescue mean something than James’s?
3) If we might grant that James and John were acting morally in this situation, then what difference did it make that John, was a Catholic?
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#2 Apr 23, '10, 6:04 am
Myqyl
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Let me say first and foremost, that I might very well be wrong... But...
As I read Matthew 25:31 - 46, when Jesus comes in glory to judge the living and the dead He will put much more emphisis on what we've done than how we worshipped. I especially feel verse 37 cuts to the chase... The righteous (both James ond John in your story) will ask when they jumped in front of a car for Him and His answer is clear.
Of course Purgatory may be wildly different experiances for these two young people... But that's for another thread
But again... I could be wrong.
God Bless!
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#3 Apr 23, '10, 6:21 am
OraLabora
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myqyl
He will put much more emphasis on what we've done than how we worshipped.
True. However I would phrase it differently: He will put much more emphasis on how we loved than how we worshipped.
In particular, how we loved the seemingly unlovable, the forgotten and downtrodden of society.
The Rule of Saint Benedict tells us to treat each visitor to a monastery as if it were Christ Himself turning up at our doorstep in person. Basically that is what Matthew 25:31-46 is saying as well: when you love others especially the downtrodden, you love Christ.
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Apr 23, '10, 6:24 am
Sir Knight
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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One must first ask themselves if they believe in the teachings of Jesus? Did Jesus speak the truth? If so, what did He have to say about the matter?
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ... this refers to baptism.
John 6:53 - So Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you." ... this refers to the Eucharist found only in the Catholic faith.
That said, those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).
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#5 Apr 23, '10, 8:11 am
Cherry5
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Knight
One must first ask themselves if they believe in the teachings of Jesus? Did Jesus speak the truth? If so, what did He have to say about the matter?
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ... this refers to baptism.
John 6:53 - So Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you." ... this refers to the Eucharist found only in the Catholic faith.
That said, those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).
I agree, however to put a little twist to this scenario, what if John (Catholic) was a practicing Gay person(or in a state of Mortal sin) died saving a life? Would he go to Hell?
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#6 Apr 23, '10, 9:41 am
OraLabora
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry5
I agree, however to put a little twist to this scenario, what if John (Catholic) was a practicing Gay person(or in a state of Mortal sin) died saving a life? Would he go to Hell?
God Bless
I don't think we can say. God is infinitely just, and infinitely merciful.
My own leaning is toward the latter in the example you mention.
I actually don't think we can say with certainty that anyone is in Hell.
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#7 Apr 23, '10, 10:23 am
Sir Knight
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry5
I agree, however to put a little twist to this scenario, what if John (Catholic) was a practicing Gay person(or in a state of Mortal sin) died saving a life? Would he go to Hell?
All it takes is one mortal sin to land somebody in hell. On the other hand, scripture does tell us that charity toward others atones for a multitude of sins.
The bottom line is that I don't think we can know for sure one way or the other and it is not out place to second guess God.
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#8 Apr 23, '10, 10:25 am
Sir Knight
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OraLabora
I actually don't think we can say with certainty that anyone is in Hell.
We can not say with certainty that any one individual is in hell but Jesus did tell us that MANY will go there compared to the FEW that will be saved.
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9 Apr 23, '10, 12:38 pm
OraLabora
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Knight
We can not say with certainty that any one individual is in hell but Jesus did tell us that MANY will go there compared to the FEW that will be saved.
Sorry English is not my first language, by "anyone" I meant we cannot say for certain if any one individual is Hell-bound or not (or for the already deceased, in Hell).
We can safely assume the place is populated though. We just can't say by whom.
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#10 Apr 23, '10, 3:46 pm
fugadux
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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If a person dies with mortal sin on his soul he/she descends immediately into hell. Of course, we can not know whether God gave them the grace of perfect contrition for their sins in the final instant of their life, but it would be presumptuous to assume that is the case.
And, to answer the first question, of course it matters what we believe and how we worship. The Church has several times infallibly declared as a dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation. For anyone living in the modern world the invincible ignorance clause pretty much goes out the window, because we have access to all the information we need in order to make a judgment about whether the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ or not. We have an obligation to seek the truth, it is not an option. I would also say on a more personal note that I don't really see how a person outside the Church could maintain a life in the state of grace even if they are validly baptized. From my own personal experience I would have definitely been on the road of perdition if it was not for the Sacrament of Confession and I think I can translate my experience to many others. After all, we are impaired by original sin and are inclined to evil, so without the actual graces of the Sacraments how would we maintain sanctifying grace?
As I have understood it morally good acts are only meritorious if they are done while we are in the friendship of God, that is a state of grace. Am I wrong?
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1 Apr 23, '10, 5:54 pm
teachccd
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alitaptap
Most probably you have read in the newspaper about a heroic effort to save someone’s life. Perhaps it was a story something like this:
1) What if the teenager in the story were James who did not believe in God. What might his heroic action mean?
2) What if the hero were John , a practicing Catholic. Might his rescue mean something than James’s?
3) If we might grant that James and John were acting morally in this situation, then what difference did it make that John, was a Catholic?
While this act of heroism was this person's last act, it would not necessarily be the deciding factor in his salvation. James would still not believe in God so that act was a purely selfless act but only for the sake of another. James would not be seeking the approval of a God that he does not believe in. So, while James did act morally it results from his relative views on morality not based on the objective truth which we know to be the ineffable God.
John, the practicing Catholic, might have chosen that act of selfless behavior out of a life filled with the presence of God. Or maybe not. We don't know. Was John in the state of grace at the time of his death? Was that act committed out of a perfect love for God and therefore remitting any mortal sin John may have had? We cannot know this. Only God can know for sure. Of course John would have all the necessary "tools" for salvation if he was a practicing Catholic but did he use them?
James and John would both go to the judgment seat of God as we all will. God knows the interior of their hearts better than they know their own. That final act would reflect something in their behavior for sure. But what is that something? Only God knows..............that's why we're not God. We cannot answer your question.........................teachcc d
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2 Apr 23, '10, 6:14 pm
SGT ROCK 33
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fugadux
If a person dies with mortal sin on his soul he/she descends immediately into hell. Of course, we can not know whether God gave them the grace of perfect contrition for their sins in the final instant of their life, but it would be presumptuous to assume that is the case.
And, to answer the first question, of course it matters what we believe and how we worship. The Church has several times infallibly declared as a dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation. For anyone living in the modern world the invincible ignorance clause pretty much goes out the window, because we have access to all the information we need in order to make a judgment about whether the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ or not. We have an obligation to seek the truth, it is not an option. I would also say on a more personal note that I don't really see how a person outside the Church could maintain a life in the state of grace even if they are validly baptized. From my own personal experience I would have definitely been on the road of perdition if it was not for the Sacrament of Confession and I think I can translate my experience to many others. After all, we are impaired by original sin and are inclined to evil, so without the actual graces of the Sacraments how would we maintain sanctifying grace?
As I have understood it morally good acts are only meritorious if they are done while we are in the friendship of God, that is a state of grace. Am I wrong?
Outstanding job, very well done... I couldn't agree with you more. How can we say that the Lord will not judge us by how we worshipped? This borders on the protestant theory of justification alone...
It is not for us to judge another man's soul. However, with that being said, as Catholics we have the teachings of the Church and I would find it difficult to make assumptions when we have the truth laid out for us. Salvation is nothing to be gambling with, and when the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church, we should not be scrupulous in this matter. We need to thank God that we have the truth and the necessary means for salvation, and not speculate on whether someone meets the criteria of the invincably ignorant.
God Bless
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#13 Apr 23, '10, 10:43 pm
Abu
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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Quote:
fugadux
The Church has several times infallibly declared as a dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation.
Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: "Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." [Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].
Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”). Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).
“Familiarity” with Catholicism does not necessarily mean that such a state translates into knowing that the Catholic Church is founded by Christ to teach, rule and sanctify mankind. Anyone who knowingly rejects Christ’s means of salvation (His Church) knowingly rejects Him, and condemns himself.
In CCC #848, “the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
[The reference 338 includes Heb 11:6 saying that God rewards those who believe and diligently seek Him; and 1 Cor 9:16 in which Paul says “woe to me if I do not preach the gospel.”]
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#14 Apr 24, '10, 1:15 am
fugadux
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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@Abu: I know that the standard interpretation of EENS is not that strictest, most literal sense. But the Church allows its members to hold to the strict sense, which we know from the fact of father Feeney and his followers and the agreement made between him and the Holy See. It is an allowed opinion. I do not personally hold to the Feeneyite position, because I think Church history proves that this interpretation is not the standard, traditional interpretation.
But we shouldn't play Russian roulette with souls and we must evangelize those who are formally outside the Church because they are deprived of the ordinary means of salvation. For instance, as I mentioned, they are deprived of the Sacrament of Confession. When it is difficult to live the Christian life even when we have access to all of the Sacraments and all of the grace of the Church, would it not be practically impossible without the Sacraments?
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#15 Apr 24, '10, 2:23 am
Abu
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Re: Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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fugadux
As you have seen the Church does NOT allow anyone to believe that only Catholics may be saved. It is in no sense an allowed "opinion". Never does dogma or defined doctrine allow of contrary "opinions".
She specifically teaches in Vatican II, Lumen Gentium #15: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
That it is much harder, there can be no doubt, and as agreed we all have the apostolate of evangelisation and reevangelisation.
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Do I have to be a Catholic to be saved?
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